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Hello all!
Proud owner of L1 Model I, and Model II, 2 B1's, and a T1. Purchased the Model I (+1 B1) five years ago, and have loved it ever since. Upgraded to the Model II (+ the T1, and another B1) in April 2008, and again continue to be impressed! (Buy the SKB L1 m2 hard cases--WOW!!) My wife and I play professionally all around Arizona, 5-6 nights a week, and take our L1 m2/T1/B1x2 rig everywhere we go. I would estimate that 90% of the time, it's more than enough sound for the places we play. However, there are those instances I start to second guess myself, and dread the thought of certain situations calling for our old mixer/mains/monitors setup. (I've become so spoiled with the ease and sonic beauty of the L1 approach!) It seems that every once in a while, our setup struggles in providing enough volume/clarity to suffice in certain noisy/crowded rooms/situations. Don't get me wrong, these instances are FEW and FAR BETWEEN, but they do happen enough for me to be asking for advice. I will preface by saying that our band typically consists of: -one female lead vocal (Beta57 into T1 ch. 1) -one acoustic guitar (Guild Peregrine into T1 ch. 2) -two congas (SM58 into T1 ch. 3) -my guitar rig (Taylor T5 & Line6 Variax 700 thru a Boss GT-6 & Digitech JamMan, into T1 ch. 4-5) -an upright bass & bass guitar (thru a separate bass amp, but occasionally with the amp routed to the analog input on the L1) I have considered the following options, and look forward to your suggestions: 1. Adding another L1 m2/T1/B1x2 setup and either running the same mix through both (which I've read is no good), or having parts of our band through each 2. Adding a powered speaker (or two), fed from the Master Output of the T1, to add more volume to the room 3. REMOVING a B1 from our rig, as someone once told me you lose some mids by adding a second 4. ADDING a Packlite to lighten the load on the L1 (?) 5. Resorting back to the mixer/mains/monitors rig for certain gigs 6. Ditching the guitar in these situations to play kazoo in the back of the room and destroy our bar tab This is my first time posting on the Forum, and look forward to some suggestions. Happy Holidays! P.S.- Here is a link to My Stage Layout in The Sketcher |
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Hi Sturgis Waters,
Thanks for using The Sketcher! Here is your Sketch.  -- click image to make changes to the live version -- Legend  L1® Model II T1 ToneMatch® audio engine  Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.  Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch® audio engine.  Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear. There were no notes included with this Sketch. |
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Hi Sturgis Waters,
Thank you for joining the message board.
Thank you for the background information.
Can you tell us a little more about these places? How many people? How large are the venues? We're just trying to figure out exactly what issues we are trying to solve.
How many people are in your ensemble? Is that four? More specifically - are there four of you when you struggle with volume?
If you have two L1® Model IIs in close together, you may gain up to 3 dB (not very much) but may introduce some issues with vocal clarity or issues with bass. Basically - there may be issues, (there may not), but the potential benefit is minimal.
Infinitely preferable. We have some great notes about this. See: Cocktail Party Effect
It would take a very powerful system to out-run or outperform your L1®, and there is not much to be gained if you have two systems overlapping. That leads us back to the details of the venues where you are having issues. If it a matter of reaching the back of a large room, then you might do well to put another L1® toward the back of the room. That is just an example of how you could approach things. More information about the kinds of places where you have the problem could help.
I don't recall reading anything like this here. This certainly has not been my experience.
ADDING a Packlite could certainly help with the low-end. Adding a PackLite® Extended Bass Package  (PackLite® amp + two B1 Bass Modules) doesn't lighten the load on the L1®.
Do you still have your old rig? Details? It's probably not going to be a lot of help if you put it into the same sound field as the L1®. If you can put it in the area where the L1® cannot be heard, then it may help. |
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ST,
Thanks for the prompt response! In regards to your post: The kinds of places we play when we run into problems are not too big. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say the biggest room we've played and had an issue is 50'W x 100'D x 20'H. (I'm bad with estimating room dimensions.) I would guess we are playing for maybe a room of 150 noisy bar folk. The next time we play these places I can take some pictures/measurements if that would help... The ensemble does consist of four people; sorry for not making that clear. My wife plays guitar and is the only vocalist. I play guitar, and there is also a percussionist and a bass player. We typically run into these struggles when all four of us are there, but it has happened in the past without the bass player. Lately we've been having the bass player run through just his amp. Let's just hypothetically say that I was going to add an identical rig (L1 m2, T1, B1x2). How would you recommend routing our signals through the two units? |
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Hi Sturgis Waters,
Thanks for the clarification about how many people performing in your ensemble. Here's a quick look at how you could set your stage with two Model II + 2 × B1 systems.  -- click image to make changes to the live version -- Legend L1® Model II T1 ToneMatch® audio engine Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems. Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch® audio engine. Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear. System 
System  
Running your two Guitars going into separate L1®s your audiences will have a clearer sense of what the two of you are contributing to the music, separately and together. |
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Hi Sturgis Waters
Noisy Rooms
In those noisy rooms, is there space in front of the stage for a dance floor? |
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Hi
In My experience one L1 and 2 B1's will struggle to cope with the amount you are throwing into it when you need to turn up the volume. There are really 2 options I can see, the first is get 2 more B1's and a paclite, that will provide more headroom, the second option is to get another L1 and 2xB1 system. Stand them both together in the middle of the stage and spread the inputs across the 2 (don't be tempted to put the same signal to both systems it won't be good). For me I would go with the extra B1's and paclite first if it works great, if not then you only need buy another L1. (should have kept your old one ;-) So if you are equipped with 4 B1's a paclite and 2 L1's then you have maximum flexibility. For small gigs with you and your Wife, Just the L1 and 2 B1's. For larger gigst for the 2 of you, take the extra B1's and paclite, for larger gigs with all of you have 2 X L1 + 2B1 systems. Thats one of the reasons why I love this system so much sound quality aside, it's so flexible, you just take what you need for the venue. I know that for my Duo 2 B1's is not enough for the venues of the size you are indicating. We could never get the volume for a noisy crowd without hitting the limiters. With 4 B1's and 1 L1 (and paclite) we rarely have a problem. Although we love the 4 B1's so much we always now use them regardless of the size. But for larger venues approaching the size you are talking about we would probably use 2 L1's each with 2 B1's. We stand the L1's together and then but the 2 B1 pairs on the outside of the L1's. I hope that helps a little. Cheers All Sparky |
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Sparky-
Welcome to my challenge, and thanks for the input! So are you saying that adding a Packlite and two B1's to my current L1/2 B1's setup would give the L1 itself more headroom? Wouldn't adding the Packlite just power the two (new) B1's, and not really lighten the load on the L1? I'm not sure if what I'm dealing with is truly a volume issue; it may be a frequency issue. If what you're suggesting is that 4 B1's and one Packlite would take more of the low end responsibility and allow the L1 to focus on the clarity and presence, then that is a suggestion I would definitely try. ST- Most of these noisy rooms have tables right in front of the stage, where a dance floor would be. Some of them do have a dance floor, though. The rooms that come to mind, however, do not. Sadly, many of these rooms are not designed for live music. Most times the "stage" is either a 6" difference from the floor and wide and shallow, or a square about 2' off the ground, but have thick railings around it. (Wish I had pictures to show you what it is I'm talking about...) Thanks for the new Sketch. I do have some questions though. If I did pursue the new sketch with another L1/T1/B1x2 rig, could they be right next to each other? Could I/would I want to stack the 4 B1's in between the two L1's, or on the outside, or does it matter? Would lightening the load on my original L1 by removing myself from that mix provide more clarity/presence/volume in the vocal on the original L1? How would I run signal to a house PA's single 1/4" balanced input (wall jack) from my multiple T1's? (In the past, I just ran a cable from the T1's Master Out, and had the Master Out set to Pre Master Volume.) In general, would placing B1's (and our bass player's amp, for that matter) further away from the L1 help provide more clarity from the L1? Could I/would I want to spread the two systems apart? What about having the left half of the band coming out of the right L1, and vice versa? (to further distance microphones) Sorry for all the questions; I just look forward to having the right setup for whatever gig comes our way. Thanks! |
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Hi Sturgis Waters,
While I am working on some replies to your questions:
Back with more specific responses in a bit. |
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Hi Sturgis Waters,
Just a little note about Headroom... Adding a PackLite® Extended Bass Package (PackLite® amp + two B1 Bass Modules) should allow you to turn up the overall volume of your L1® System to a louder level before you experience compression. I specifically say L1® System because the Model II with B1s (one, two or four) works as an integrated system as described in the article I gave you above. Model II - Bass Line Out (what happens as you add more B1s)
I am trying to get a sense of whether we are trying to overcome ambient noise or get through a wall of dancers closely packed in front of the stage.
Sounds like we have to be prepared for all kinds of circumstances. That's okay.
Yes - you can do that.
It does matter, but how much will depend on your musical arrangements and the acoustics of the room. Here is another great article: In response to: "where and how is the best way to place the B1; single, double, and quad" Chris-at-Bose wrote an article: B1 Bass Module/Positioning I've got to run out for a bit. Let me get back to you on the rest when I return. |
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ST,
Thanks for all your diligence with my challenges. The articles you linked provided lots of helpful info. So,... I just got home from Guitar Center, and am the proud owner of my 3RD Bose L1, (including my original L1 Model I), and am soon off to my gig at the same place we played last night. (This will be the ultimate test...) The new rig also has two B1's and a T1, and I special ordered a Packlite for those instances of wanting one L1 and all four B1's. (Gotta try everything, you know...) I plan to run everything as shown on your updated sketch, except I might have our bass player run through the new T1 with my guitar signal. This will allow me to have separate channels for his upright and bass guitar, and all the options thereto. (That'll be nice!) That leaves my wife's vocal & acoustic guitar, as well as our conga player, on the original L1. I may end up experimenting further down the road with who gets plugged into which, (maybe the rhythm section in one, the rest in the other, etc.); I just want there to obviously be as little as possible competing with the vocal. In response to a question of yours that perhaps I didn't answer adequately, we rarely are battling a wall of (standing) people on a dance floor; the closest we would come to that is playing on the aforementioned 6" stage, and perhaps a wall of (seated) people directly in front of said "stage." I look forward to trying out the new setup tonight, and will report back with the results! Thanks again for all your assistance, and enjoy the rest of your weekend! |
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Hi Sturgis Waters,
Well you certainly move quickly when you make a decision. By now you already have a great sense of the answers to some of these things. But I promised to get back to you, so here goes.
I think you should have more clarity/presence and even perceived volume, but I don't think it would be because you are lightening the load on the first L1®. I think it is because having two different voices¹ coming out of two different loudspeakers has a great and positive impact on clarity and presence. ¹ Your part of the music is a voice, your wife's part of the music is a voice. I play in duos a great deal (several different partners) and almost always through two L1®s. The difference is certainly noticeable — and judging by the positive comments, this is noticeable in the audience. And they DO notice.
Let me deal with that in a separate post.
As you probably picked up in Chris' article. It depends. I have NOT found that moving B1s away from the L1® makes a positive difference. If anything, as Chris points out, "If the group of B1s is far from its L1, the lows will come from one place and the highs from another and this is harder for everyone to hear clearly. More than about 5 feet (1.3 m) of separation is probably beginning to compromise your spatial quality. It's best if you can keep the B1s adjacent to or within a foot (30 cm) of the PS1." I usually start there, and unless I have a problem (boomy in a corner for example), I haven't found much in the way of positive benefit from separating the B1s from the L1®. I will move the B1 around if I am having issues with Bass Regeneration → another article - this time by Ken-at-Bose.
I tend to put each L1®s directly behind the person who is the principle player using it. That would be one L1® behind you, and one behind your wife. That's where I would start. Then you can fine tune from there. Here is a typical setup with one of my duo partners.  Here is a clipping from the Owners Guide. 
I have tried this and found that it is really aurally awkward. If someone else's L1® is closer me than my L1® then I tend to have trouble hearing myself for monitoring. That other person is probably having the same issue. What both of us will tend to want to do is turn up our own volume. The situation just escalates from there. Furthermore - in the audience, this is just confusing — perhaps like watching a movie on a big screen and having the wires (left & right) connected backwards. As always, you can try it. I have always found that it creates more problems than it solves.
Questions are great. More coming on the 2 × T1® to House System question. |
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I think you might approach this a little differently now. I think you may prefer to use the AUX out from the T1® (both of them). Note: Aux out does NOT send reverb, but generally speaking I would not send reverb to a house system anyway. (Details: No Reverb on Aux ) Here's that Sketch again. -- click image to make changes to the live version -- Line Out to House with two T1®s Your T1®  Let's say for that you have a Channel open on your . I know that you mentioned that you may be running the Bass into a channel or two, but for now let's persist with this approach. I'll assume that T1® Channel 3 is open. We'll come back to this in a minute.On each of the Channels (except Channel 3) that you want to share with the House system, Press CH Edit Turn the rotary Selector to Aux Press Mute (display will now say 50%) - that's okay Press Tap (set to Post) Channel 3 This is the one that we are going to use to get the signal from T1® into your T1®.Press CH Edit Turn the rotary Selector to Aux Press Mute (display will now say 50%) - You may have to adjust this in real-time to get a good balance between your other channels and the signal coming from T1® Press Tap (set to Pre) Important - Press Channel 3 Mute Button (below the Vol dial) and just in case... Turn Channel 3 Vol to zero. T1® Same as on yours. On each of the Channels that you want to share with the House system, Press CH Edit Turn the rotary Selector to Aux Press Mute (display will now say 50%) - that's okay -- Special note: On your wife's vocal Channel - set this level to 75% Press Tap (set to Post) Now use a ¼ inch jack Balanced or Unbalanced cable (either is fine) and connect T1® Aux Out toT1® Channel 3Finally run the T1® Aux out to the House system.It's going to take some tweaking, but this should accomplish a couple of things:
Did that help? PS - How was the gig? More questions? |
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ST-
Let me start by saying that if I'd known buying another L1 system would solve my problems, I would've bought one a long time ago! Everything went great; so much more separation in the overall mix. We received many compliments from some of our regulars regarding how much clearer everything sounded. It made a huge difference not to have that many things coming through one system. I appreciate all your help in troubleshooting my issue, and look forward to using the new dual L1 systems again and again. I love the AUX Out method for the house system send. I will definitely try it. I do have aome questions about it though, and since questions are good... The way I run my (T5/Variax 700) guitar rig is as follows: -both guitars to an A/B switch box -A/B out to Boss GT-6 -GT-6 L out to channel 4 on the T1 -GT-6 R out to Digitech JamMan, to Sansamp Acoustic DI, to Ernie Ball volume pedal, to channel 5 on the T1 (this last step allows me to fade out a loop without fading out what I'm playing on the guitar) Now, given that, is there a way you can think of to plug the Taylor T5 into Ch. 1 of the T1, and the Variax into Ch. 2 of the T1? (so as to take advantage of setting each input differently on the T1) This is not a high priority for me, and wouldn't have thought of it, but I noticed in your last sketch that you had my guitars listed as inputs 1 & 2, and my pedals still listed as 4/5. Just curious... And another thing,... (this is one that I do need to know) I have a mobile 8-channel Pro Tools rig, have done a little recording from the T1 before, and look forward to doing more. Here is how I did it before: (again, on the original T1 setup, vocal=1, acoustic guitar=2, congas=3, my guitar rig=4/5) -T1 PREAMP outs 1-3 to inputs 1-3 on my Pro Tools rig -AUX sends on T1 muted on all channels except channels 4/5 (my guitar) -T1 AUX send level on 4/5 at 100% -T1 AUX out to input 4 on the Pro Tools rig -a couple room mics here and there I was very pleased with this method. Curious what you think of this approach. Also, I'm wondering about if I pursued your Aux out house system configuration, can you think of another way to capture my guitar signal? Given my above explanation of my guitar rig, using channels 4/5 has always been convenient, but unfortunately 4/5 do not have direct outs. Any ideas? One last thing, how would one go about requesting a ToneMatch preset? Is there a way to do such a thing? I would love to see one for a Guild Peregrine acoustic guitar. I have one I occasionally play, and my wife has two. They are wonderful guitars, but very hard to EQ. When playing a solo gig, it may very well be the best acoustic I've ever heard--great overall frequency; deep, warm, and clear. But in an Ensemble, it can get lost or overpower other instruments. Just curious about a ToneMatch preset request... That's all the questions I have for now, but there's bound to be more around the corner... As always, a big thanks!! |
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Hi Sturgis Waters,
Congratulations and thanks for letting us know how the gig went. No quick answers for you... I'm out of here for the night. Quick question for you though. Do you have a simple line level mixer? I'm thinking about a way to free up the Aux buss. Catch you later! |
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Hi Sturgis Waters,
I am really glad for you. That is the same kind of audience feedback we (my duo partner and I) received when we first played through two L1®s.
My view of it these days - if there is room for a duo, then make room for two L1®s. But that's just me.
I set up Channels  and  in the Sketch because I was thinking about using the Aux Out to send the signal to your GT-6. Basically we would be using the T1® (Channels 1 & 2) as your A/B box. The as yet immature plan was to set the Aux Send to Pre-Fader. Your signal (pre GT-6, pre JamMan would be in the T1® Main, affected by the Presets and any T1® Effects). Then take the Aux out and send it to the GT-6 and have it return to Channels 4/5. Anyway - that's just an idea. You could experiment with that - I'd be curious to know how that works for you. Of course this means that we would have to find another way to get both T1® outputs to the house system. This is why I was asking if you had another line-level mixer. Then you could take the Analog Master output from both T1®s, mix them down and send that to the house system.
Ah - that's getting tough - to do EVERYTHING that is... Does your 8-channel Pro Tools rig have individual outputs? If so, then you could run all your sources to the Pro Tools rig first and then send the outs wherever you would normally have plugged them in on the T1®s.
Getting a custom Preset has usually been a done in person at L1® Owners' conferences. I'm not saying that it isn't possible, but just that it seems best done when you and your instrument can be in the presence of Cliff-at-Bose (Inventor of the L1® and creator of many of the Presets). Still - Craig-at-Bose has asked that people tell him what instruments they are playing so that they (Bose) can be aware of the pent up demand for Presets. Please post a reply in this discussion: Tell us what instrument and microphones you use. The folks-at-Bose do not answer posts there. They just note the information for future development. Now back to things that you CAN do now. Well I did a little digging and found out the the standard Guild Peregrine has a Fishman acoustic matrix natural pickup system, chambered body, and no sound holes. Taking that into account, I think that you should take a run through all the Acoustic Guitar Presets - the standard ones and then try all the Taylor Guitar ones as well. You might like the Taylor T5 preset. Do your testing at full gig volume and do it with you (on your rig) and the Bass and Percussion playing at the same time - or use a recording. The idea is to find a Preset that sounds good in YOUR mix. If you do in isolation, it will sound different in the context of the ensemble, and you might have to go through the Preset listening / selection procedure all over again.
You are welcome. |
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my guitar rig (Taylor T5 & Line6 Variax 700 thru a Boss GT-6 & Digitech JamMan, into T1 ch. 
Channels 
two congas (SM58)