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Picture of Drumma777
posted
I am looking for some opinions on a decent setup for our church worship team. I've attached two diagrams that I threw together with Visio to help people like me who need pictures to help visualize something. The one is our existing setup on stage with all the monitors, amplifiers and house speakers. The other one is all of that replaced with the Bose system and how I would connect the band. But I want someone who has experience with the PAS to give me some feedback and tell me what their recommendation for our church would be (given the facts). I will make this as detailed as I possibly can so you have as much information as you need and then some. Wink

Dimensions:
∙ Stage Size - 36' Wide x 16' Deep
∙ Sanctuary Size - 36' Wide x 100' Deep (that includes the stage)

Musicians and Singers:
∙ Lead singer (wireless Shure SM58 with receiver in the sound room)
∙ Four backup singers with one behind the piano (wired Shure SM58)
∙ Electric piano (Yamaha brand)
∙ Electric drums (Hart dynamics kit with an Alesis DMPro brain)
∙ Electric guitar (uses an effects board and two other effects pedals daisy chained)
∙ Acoustic guitar (plugs directly into an amp right now)
∙ Electric bass guitar (plus directly into an amp right now)
∙ Congas, harmonica and other percussion instruments (wired Shure SM58)

Our intent is to replace the two stage monitors, the four stage amps, four house speakers, the 24 channel mixer, the effects processor, the equalizers, the power amplifiers (except the one for our 70V system), and the digital delay. We currently have two smaller speakers in the middle of the sanctuary on a digital delay to fill the back end. My hope is that we won't need these anymore but I really need some professional advice on this one due to the fact that our sanctuary might be rather deep. Our ceiling isn't all that high and it's arched except for the back end. If I had to guess in the ceiling height I'd have to say it's about 10'-12' high at the bottom of the arch and about 15'-20' at the top of the arch. The other thing that concerns me is getting the volume loud enough in the back so people can hear the music over everyone singing and clapping.

Here's the diagrams...




I look forward to hearing from you all. We are a small church of about 200 or so in the Denver/Ephrata area of PA (Harvest Fellowship) Smile

≈Rick≈

Edit title:
Previously: Bose PAS Design For Worship Team In PA (diagrams)

PAS is now L1®
This is a trademark concern.
-- click image for details--

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Forum-Admin,
 
Posts: 21 | Location: Stevens, PA | Registered: Wed October 13 2004Reply With QuoteAsk Bose for help
Picture of ST
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Rick,

Great diagrams. The layout you are proposing looks pretty good to me.

I might run the piano into the Personalized Amplification System™ (PAS) at the far right. Your version has the instruments well balanced. The only reasons I would put the piano input into the unit at the right are:
- for the sake of the Piano player: He or she would probably have an easier time hearing him/herself in the mix if both of the sounds he/she is producing are coming from the same point in space.
- for the "audience", having the Piano sound coming from behind the Piano would give a better sight/sound correlation.

On the other hand, having all those instruments coming out of one unit may not be as clear as having it come out of two units. It depends on what/how everyone is playing. You could try it both ways.

 
Posts: 39131 | Location: Canada (Vancouver) | Registered: Sat June 12 2004Reply With QuoteAsk Bose for help
Picture of ST
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Rick

quote:
We currently have two smaller speakers in the middle of the sanctuary on a digital delay to fill the back end. My hope is that we won't need these anymore but I really need some professional advice on this one due to the fact that our sanctuary might be rather deep.


I wouldn't remove those speakers just yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if you find that you don't need them.

The Bose units project sound much more effectively than traditional systems and in your circumstances you will certainly hear the difference.
 
Posts: 39131 | Location: Canada (Vancouver) | Registered: Sat June 12 2004Reply With QuoteAsk Bose for help
Picture of Drumma777
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Big Grin Thanks, ST for your input! I actually have the opportunity to try out the PAS at our church but only with two single base units. But I think that will be enough to at least give us an idea of how well they will project the sound throughout the sanctuary. So having the piano, piano vox, drums and congas through the one might not be that bad. But if money wasn't an issue I'd really like to go with five units total. We'll have to see how it all works out though. We'll be able to use these two units during a Sunday morning service which is our fullest service so it will be a good test for them I think. But we'll have to keep in mind that it won't be as good as having four so we need to be fair too. In my diagram I have the two units on the end as double base units for the drums and bass guitar. We might start out with all single bass units and upgrade later but we'll have to see. I might experiment with the units I'm borrowing to make the one double bass and see how much difference there is. It would be really nice if there was a Bose reseller close to us that could bring out four or five units to demo them for a day or weekend. So if any one from Bose is reading this and can hook me up please let me know. Big Grin

Thanks!

∙≡ Rick ≡∙
 
Posts: 21 | Location: Stevens, PA | Registered: Wed October 13 2004Reply With QuoteAsk Bose for help
Picture of Chuck-at-Bose
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Hi Rick,

Great diagrams, indeed! (You're giving ST, the reigning king of diagrams, a run for his money in that regard!)

Here's a link for Guitar Centers, PA, our exclusive reseller for the Bose® Personalized Amplification System™ family of products. I'm also sending you some info for local contacts via Private Message...
 
Posts: 1421 | Location: Northeast US | Registered: Sun November 02 2003Reply With QuoteAsk Bose for help
Picture of Drumma777
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It's been over four years and we still haven't made the jump yet!! Well, FINALLY we are going to get what we need and evaluate them for the 45 day trial. Here is my new sketch to view and see the new stage layout. Please read my notes attached to my sketch for more information as well as the above post from 4 years ago. As far as adding more B1s, I think I may consider adding more later if I discover what I first purchased won't be enough. But, I'm open for ideas! Please also see my Google SketchUp drawing attached even though it doesn't show everything. Thank-you for any help you can provide!

Rick Monyer
Harvest Fellowship
Stevens, PA
wwww.harvestpa.com

The new stage layout top view
 
Posts: 21 | Location: Stevens, PA | Registered: Wed October 13 2004Reply With QuoteAsk Bose for help
Picture of Drumma777
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A picture speaks a thousand words, so here is a recent photo of our church sanctuary. I also wanted to let you know that the style of music is anything from soft rock, pop, heavy ballads, hymns, or even country. But we no longer have an electric guitar player Frown so the mix is lacking in that sense. But most importantly is that we worship God with all our might so the music does get pretty intense at times. I play a Roland TD-20 drum set so we get good sound out of that. We have a Yamaha clavinova and an old Roland keyboard but I forget the model numbers. Well, that's all for now.

Harvest Fellowship Stage View
 
Posts: 21 | Location: Stevens, PA | Registered: Wed October 13 2004Reply With QuoteAsk Bose for help
Picture of ST
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Hi Rick,

Great SketchUp Sketch.

Here is your Sketcher Sketch and accompanying notes.


-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend
L1® Model II
T1 ToneMatch® audio engine
   Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.
   Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch® audio engine.
   Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear.

Quoting drumma777 from The Sketcher
quote:
This is my proposed layout for a church worship team in a church that is about 40' wide and 100' deep and holds about 200-225 people. I have a Google SketchUp of the stage layout to scale as well if you'd like it. I hope the diagram is clear enough on how I envision connecting everyone up. The mixer at the bottom left is actually in the soundroom in the rear of the sancuary with a PC and CD/Tape deck panned hard and then two wireless mics panned hard the other side. These mics are used for the minister and also public speaking so they need to be controlled by a soundman, at least for now. The flute player uses a wireless lapel mic strapped to her mouth piece (don't laugh..it works) and the leader (center guitar) uses a wireless headset mic. I hope we have enough B1s. I know more would be better, but it may not be possible at this point (money wise). Let me know your opinion on that please. This setup is flexible and I am open to suggestions even as far as purchasing more B1s. We are not overly concerned about bass considering we have next to none currently and too much may be distracting. We are looking to purchase next week so a quick reply would be appreciated. Thanks!

Rick Monyer
Harvest Fellowship
Stevens, PA
www.harvestpa.com
 
Posts: 39131 | Location: Canada (Vancouver) | Registered: Sat June 12 2004Reply With QuoteAsk Bose for help
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Hi, Rick:

Between your two sketches (Google SketchUp vs Sketcher), it's not clear to me whether you're looking at Model I or Model II.

I would definitely stay with T1's, as you've shown in Sketcher layout.

However, I would say: don't judge the adequacy of the bass response from single B1's on those system which are connected to the computer/iPod or keyboards. You recognize that factor in your earlier notes, but if I was faced with the choice of Model II w/ 1-B1 vs. Model I w/ 2-B1's, I'd go that latter route -- particularly if you may not be moving them often to other location. Given the set up on the "short" wall of the room, the wider spread of the Model II won't be a major advantage to the congregation -- although it may help some on the stage.
 
Posts: 2708 | Location: That PA, DE, MD corner of the USA. | Registered: Tue June 07 2005Reply With QuoteAsk Bose for help
Picture of Drumma777
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Thanks for the feedback Dan! I was going to go with the Model II units but now I am curious about getting 4 Model I double bass packages, 4 T1s w/PS, and a PackLite extended bass package for the drums and bass. Hmmmmmmm... It would be considerably cheaper and what would I REALLY be gaining by using the Model II units over the Model I units? Wow! I would save $2400 using the same L1, T1, B1 configuration but using the Model II units instead and $800 cheaper than my original configuration but with more power and bass! I'm not too concerned with portability, I mean they're already pretty portable and we wouldn't be using them outside of the church all that much (maybe 10 events in a year outside the church). Now you got me thinking! Smile Any more suggestions, questions, comments?
 
Posts: 21 | Location: Stevens, PA | Registered: Wed October 13 2004Reply With QuoteAsk Bose for help
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Just remember that you need the external power supplies for the T1's if you do go with Model I L1's.

The only other consideration (which I think relevant to your setup) is that the Model II does have a bit of floor-space advantage in that the B1s can nestle in close to the column. That should not be a major limitation with the size of your stage, but it *is* something to consider.

FYI, in general, one way to "compact the footprint" of multiple L1's is to "share a stack" between two L1s. That is, for two L1's and a total of 4 B1s between them, just place a stack of 4 B1's between the two L1s. Top 2 connect to one L1; the bottom 2 to the other L1. -- One may not like the look of it, but I can't think of an acoustical reason to NOT do so (and I have done just that, on at least two occasions).

For an "on-the-road" group, the Model II size & weight reduction *is* of more value.
 
Posts: 2708 | Location: That PA, DE, MD corner of the USA. | Registered: Tue June 07 2005Reply With QuoteAsk Bose for help
Picture of Drumma777
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OK. I've made up my mind after much deliberation and reading on this forum comparing the Model I to the Model II I've decided and our church board has decided that we should do this the best way that we can. I feel the best solution is to get three Model II double-bass packages with ToneMatches and one Model II single-bass package with a ToneMatch and add in a Packlight extended bass package. Here is a link to My Stage Layout in The Sketcher. I feel that this configuration will give me the best solution bass wise, power wise and coverage wise. I am under some serious pressure though to make a GREAT first impression with the church board because we will only have one Sunday service before our next board meeting to decide if we are going to keep these or not. I don't think that's fair, but this is what the board decided because our board meeting in February will be after the 45 day trial is up. So to say I am a little nervous is a HUGE understatement. Not that I don't believe in this product, but I understand that there could be things we'd have to work through to get it perfected and only having one band practice and then doing a full Sunday morning service. I know our board members and I think they will be understanding enough to know if we can work through any of the problems that could arise during the trial period. So I may be calling Bose everyday after I install on the 28th! :P Please give me some feedback on my new configuration and if there is anything I should be concerned with and even stage layout (placement of the musicians). You can see from the above photo, Sketchup drawing, and my Sketcher sketch how we'll be arranged. Most of the major instruments and vocals are on the right (stage left) and the other half are backup vocals and supplemental instruments. That's all for now. Thanks for all your help Dan. More advise would be greatly appreciated although at this point I'm pretty sure I'm going to order these over the phone today first thing this morning. Wink
 
Posts: 21 | Location: Stevens, PA | Registered: Wed October 13 2004Reply With QuoteAsk Bose for help
Picture of ST
posted Hide Post
Hi Rick,

Here is your Sketcher Sketch.


-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend
L1® Model II
T1 ToneMatch® audio engine
   Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.
   Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch® audio engine.
   Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear.

Quoting drumma777 from The Sketcher
quote:
This is my proposed layout for a church worship team in a church that is about 40' wide and 100' deep and holds about 200-225 people. I have a Google SketchUp of the stage layout to scale as well if you'd like it. I hope the diagram is clear enough on how I envision connecting everyone up. The mixer at the bottom left is actually in the soundroom in the rear of the sancuary with a PC and CD/Tape deck panned hard and then two wireless mics panned hard the other side. These mics are used for the minister and also public speaking so they need to be controlled by a soundman, at least for now. The flute player uses a wireless lapel mic strapped to her mouth piece (don't laugh..it works) and the leader (center guitar) uses a wireless headset mic. I hope we have enough B1s. I know more would be better, but it may not be possible at this point (money wise). Let me know your opinion on that please. This setup is flexible and I am open to suggestions even as far as purchasing more B1s. We are not overly concerned about bass considering we have next to none currently and too much may be distracting. We are looking to purchase next week so a quick reply would be appreciated. Thanks!

Rick Monyer
Harvest Fellowship
Stevens, PA
www.harvestpa.com
 
Posts: 39131 | Location: Canada (Vancouver) | Registered: Sat June 12 2004Reply With QuoteAsk Bose for help
posted Hide Post
It's a big step, Rick, but I'm sure the result will be that soon most folks will forget where all that sound is coming from!!

Our worship space is a bit narrower and about 1/2 the length (25'x45') -- but we're hardly pushing the 2 or 3 L1's we use (and we have to deal with an awful 'cave stage').

Since you have an elevated stage, and plenty of space between the L1's and the front row of listeners, I would not be concerned about getting the sound to the back.

Two key factors to work on for the "first time out":

  • Drill all vocalists on "kissing the mic" (or "eat the mic") and angling the mics so they don't point directly at "their" L1; this is the most vital factor to minimize any potential feedback issues and getting sufficient volume.

  • Put the L1's against the wall and as near the center as aesthetically practical (see edited photo below) -- but then move everyone: drums, percussion, singers, guitarists, ... everyone ... as close to the front of the stage as reasonable.

    Since you won't have monitors, you'll have more room to work with! By putting the percussion on the opposite from the e-drums, you can get them both out from the corners.

    You can later make adjustments with respect to making more use of the stage depth and revising the placement of the L1's and people, but to get everyone used to really hearing everyone else, keep them as far from the L1's as you can.

    Proposed L1 positions
  •  
    Posts: 2708 | Location: That PA, DE, MD corner of the USA. | Registered: Tue June 07 2005Reply With QuoteAsk Bose for help
    Picture of Drumr
    posted Hide Post
    Very good and thorough advice Dan.
    This looks like a perfect room for multiple L1s. This is about the size of our church, we used a single L1 near the corner with very good results. Your set up ought to really rock the place!
     
    Posts: 4679 | Location: Central Illinois | Registered: Wed August 25 2004Reply With QuoteAsk Bose for help
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