Is anyone using a couple of Choir Mics (any variety) in a Duo/Trio band situation and positioning them in front of band members to feed their sounds to an L1/M2 System for "lite" sound reinforcement?

Here's my situation:

We are an acoustic trio (sometimes 4 of us) that play a variety of Bluegrass, Old-time, Celtic, Americana-type music. Instrumentation consists of acoustic guitar, mandolin, fiddle, banjo, and upright bass, depending on the band configuration and two of the guys provide all the vocals.

We play a few venues on a regular basis that are really just small cafes, coffee house, wine bar, etc. They seat between 30-50 people, max. These places typically have a small stage, if any at all, and little in the way of lighting. We've been playing the majority of these gigs without sound reinforcement and just do'em acoustically. Most of the time, because of the crowd size and type of crowds they are, it works out fine. We play and sing a little louder, once the crowd numbers increase. However, most of the time by the end of the night, the places "fill-up" with customers and we find ourselves wishing we had just a bit of sound reinforcement during the last hour or so of the gig. I'm sure the solo and duo folks know what I'm talking about!

In these instances, we have found ourselves wishing we had some sort of easy, unobtrusive, "lite" form of sound reinforcement available. The L1/M2 seems well suited for this type of application for our group. However, I would like to really simplify the setup with just a single, low-profile mic stand and a couple of small "choir mics" hung off it to capture the vocals and instruments. We don't want to turn these gigs into full-fledged setups with multiple L1/B1 systems and a full complement of individual mics, etc. I'm just looking to do something that will allow it to be us, just a notch louder, and not in-your-face amplification. Therefore, I'm not looking for lots of gain before feedback....just simply, a little "louder" than acoustically.

Is anyone doing something similar? If so, how are you doing it? By using "choir mics" (because I want "low-profile", easy setup) am I asking for trouble with feedback, since we keep the L1/M2 behind us? Does it sound like too much trouble for the benefit? I've been thinking lately how to solve this issue for us, but really haven't tried any approaches yet. The choir mic idea just came to me tonight, as a "low profile" answer, if it would work. Anyone with experience in this area? I realize the use of a LDC mic would be an option as well, and just gather around it like a traditional Bluegrass band would. But this approach is not as "low profile", in my opinion.

One and all, feel free to comment....I'm listening!

John

check into the Audix micro boom line.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MB1245

Hi, John:

The mic/boom Rain references may be a good approach.

I'm not sure, with the L1, you can be "physically low-profile" ... but perhaps you can be "unobtrusive".

The key feature of a long boom is that you can get the mic(s) above the top of the L1, which will REALLY help the gain-before-feedback concerns. Point the mic down at least 60 degrees toward the performers ... just like micing a choir.

As long as it is above and not pointing towards the column, it may do what you want.

Just another thought occurred to me: since the mic is pointing toward the floor, it may work better pointing toward a carpeted floor area than towards a wood or concrete floor ....

Hi John,

I just did a quick experiment and set up a couple of Neuman KM184s like this (the picture shows AKGs but the setup is really what matters here).

The test was to use cardioid condenser microphones in with the ORTF technique (Office de Radiodiffusion Télévision Française).

Basically, the microphones are together, aimed at 110° to each other, and you aim the pointy part of the resulting "v" away from the band.

I set them up at about five feet off the floor to avoid being parallel with the sound hole of the Guitar and a little below my mouth.


--== click the picture to see it in context ==--

First, this worked quite well.

• I was able to stand about directly in front of, and two feet away from the microphones with an L1® Model II 3 feet behind me (emulating a relatively shallow stage).
  
• This was in an irregular room roughly 30 x 40'
  
• I was able to get 'amplified' for a range about six feet wide in front of the microphones at a distance varying from two to three feet. It was hard to get much more because it was just me in front of the microphones so when I moved off to the sides, there was nothing between the microphones and the L1®.
  

I had someone wander around as I tried different things. The report was, the volume, sustain, and presence were all noticeably better when I turned on the L1®.

The reasons I chose this configuration (ORTF as pictured):

• ORTF is known to work well for live stereo recordings, and to mix down to mono with little ill effect. I wasn't going for stereo, but I knew that we would effectively be mixing down to mono by running both microphones into the T1®.
  
• I wanted the extra lateral coverage I expected, and got, by having the microphones aimed outward. This was to accommodate your ensemble of several players.
  
• I wanted to do something that you might be able to try without investing in more gear.
  
• One microphone stand is less trouble than two.
  
• This is not going to be low-profile because it would have to be centered in front of the group - but it would probably be no more visually distracting than anything else I could imagine on a microphone stand. It also worked better, in a quick comparison, than a single, large diaphragm condenser microphone set in the center of the space pointed directly at the L1®.
  

I had thought about setting up really low, say at two feet and aiming up because that might give you more gain before feedback by having the microphones aimed up over the L1®. I didn't try it though because this would tend to favour the instruments over the vocals.

I also thought about coming down from the top, but I didn't have a stable boom that would go high enough to be above the L1®. In a choir situation you wouldn't have instruments so it might not matter, but in this instance I think coming down from above would tend to favour the closer sound source; the vocals, over the instruments. So going for a natural mix I positioned the microphones slightly between the instrument and my mouth. The balance was good.

If you want to try this:

You will need a couple of similar if not identical cardioid microphones and some ingenuity or a double-headed microphone clip adapter.

This takes two channels on the T1®. I ran everything flat because at 24-36 inches I wasn't optimizing for vocals or compensating for proximity effects.

I expect that you would need to tweak the EQ to avoid feedback and the frequency would probably depend a lot on the room in which you tried this. That's just because with this setup you are picking up a lot more "room" than you would with a close mic'ing technique.

Anyway, there's an idea for you. If you get a chance to try it, please let me know how it works for you.

Rain - Thanks for the link to the Audix micro boom line. I wasn't familiar with it. It appears to be a possibility.

Dan - When I was thinking about "low profile", I was thinking of the view of the guys from the audience. The smaller the devices and lower in line of sight, the better. At least that is my initial thought. I expect the L1/M2 to be near the back wall of the stage, blending-in with the surroundings.

ST - What can I say? I didn't expect you to do an actual experiment! Although, I find your results/findings very encouraging and thanks for trying it as a "shallow" stage, because that is what we'll have.

quote:

The report was, the volume, sustain, and presence were all noticeably better when I turned on the L1®.

This is VERY encouraging! Since I haven't done any testing yet, I'm glad to hear my initial thought about doing something similar, might actually work. I've seen the ORTF method used in recording, but never in sound reproduction. For some reason, I thought this might actually cause some cancellation or phasing issues with the mics being so close together and the chance they might "hear" each other through the system.

I have a pair of SM81s and a pair of AKG C1000s. Although these won't be as "stealthy" as I would like, if one of these pairs worked, it would certainly be easier on my wallet! I have a dual mic mount already.

Thanks for all the input guys! Having started with just the "idea" of doing something like this, to getting leads on equipment and hearing about actual test results, is just overwhelming to me. I have got to get to work on "the solution" now!!

Hi John,

Considering all the advice provided so far, especially the results of ST's experiment, I would suggest that choir mics could very well work if they are cardioid and combined with the ORTF technique. Many choir mics are super or hyper cardioid and would likely not provide the more even coverage of the cardioid. Choir mics don't necessarily need to be suspended.

Another option for stealth would be to use clip-on instrument mics as these would provide more stealth and may be simpler to mount and position. Alternately, cardioid lavelier mics would be even smaller and they can be attached to a piece of wire with the tie clip for precise positioning. Note that any of these mics have to be the type with an XLR connector and wired to operate on Phantom power as most will be condensers. Many of these smaller mics are setup for wireless use and would require an adapter which converts phantom power to Bias voltage in order to use them without a wireless body pack. I can assist you with this should there be a need.

Hi Mark!

Thanks for your post! You jogged my memory about a pair of Core Sound "stealth" mics that I once used with my MiniDisc recorder. I need to dig them out and see if there is a way to interface them somehow to an input (or inputs) on my T1. I have no idea if they would work or not, but at least I could try them. They would definitely fulfill the stealthy and easy-setup aspects I'm looking to achieve.

I found a picture of them here.