After a trip to Guitar Center to potentially update our PA to a new passive mixer with powered speakers, I was introduced to the Bose L1 by the sales guy. I play in an acoustical duo, two vocals, one Taylor and one electric Parker Fly with piezo through a 65 Fender DR with a couple of pedals (IB tube screamer and Dig Delay). In other words, we're not very high tech, except for maybe the Fly. The GC rep assured me that the L1 could handle both of our guitars and two vocals and fill the room which was a small to medium venue that held about 400 people.

I was skeptical, especially since in the store he has to turn up the L1 to about 3:00 master to hear it over the ambient noise in the store, i.e. almost full blast. After reading some posts here and some on some other sites thats were not as complimentary, I went back to GC and bought a second B-1 unit before the gig to have extra kick as this gig is an annual thing for us and usually requires maximum volume as it is a large and usually active and fairly intoxicated crowd.

We play a mix of older rock and roll and some newer stuff, some country, some in between--from George Michael to Stones to Guns and Roses with full distortion on the electric and some stuff that requires more intricant and subtle guitar work. We play all types of venues from this type of party Sat (which could almost use more of a full band), to more low key engagement-type parties where we are background noise, to outdoor festivals and farm parties.

In any event, I guess post gig, the verdict is still out a bit on this system. At the outset, we could hear better during our sound check than normal and it was nice to hear what the actual mix was. We could hear our instruments and voices clearly and the volume seemed adequate when the room was empty.

After the room began to fill and we started, a few people commented on the mix not being right and we made some changes and we had some positive comments about mid way through about how clear it was and loud enough around the room.

Towards the end of the night, we had comments that it was not loud enough and could not be heard past about the second or third row of people. At certain points my playing partner could not hear his guitar, and at certain points it was hard to hear the various parts of our 4 components. Not sure if the people got loud and drowned us out or if the L1 was compressing or limiting itself. Doubt the L1 was hitting a limit since we were only about to turn it up to about 12:00. Overall we were not able to push the master volume because at about 12:00 we experienced ear-piercing feedback. unfortunately, we were not able to put the L1 7 feet behind us as recommended, and once set up, we didn't have the room or the time or ability to move it, or us, around. The party was very crowded and without monitors, people were falling into us and knocking our mikes over and stepping on our tuners and pedals. I think the L-1 brought the audience closer for better or worse, and we just weren't quite prepared for that result first time out.

On breaks we plugged an ipod into the base and ran the ipod on full volume and trimmed it out (up) a lot, but we couldn't hear it very clearly on the other side of the room when the room was full of people. We could tell it was playing something but it was hard to tell what song. Again this was a room of about 400 people, all drunk, loud, talking, (25-45, not quite a frat party but close) maybe 2,500-3,000 square feet of space with high ceilings and hard floors and walls.

Also, had the T-1 and it took a couple of face plants because it just rests on the post using gravity with nothing to bolt it down. Any pressure on the 4 input cords in a different direction or pushing too hard at the top and this thing hits the floor. It kept working, but I have concerns about it taking a lot of abuse, especially in light of posts here about it failing. Also, if we were 7 feet in front of it, we wouldn't be able to turn and adjust it anyway.

Last comment was that my playing partner had trouble adjusting to all of the sound coming from over his left shoulder and into one ear all night. He thought it would be great to each have our own stick, but as is, it would "take some getting used to" to not hear as much from his right ear as his left. Again, I think a lot of our issues may have been a tough acoustic room, a tough audience to cut through, and not being able to create enough distance from the L1 to limit our feedback issues, but I have 14 days at Guitar center to decide whether to keep the L1 or try out power speakers and a passive mixer (a cheaper option if nothing else).

I wondered if people had advice as to whether for what we do we would be happier with a more traditional system. We like the idea of the Bose L1 and being able to hear our mix as the audience hears it, love the easy set up and take down, love the built in effects, love the sound when no one is around. Would a pair of JBL PRX 515s (or powered Mackies) through a passive mixer (no sub) give us more power to cut through a crowd like this, or would it be inferior? The GC guy wouldn't even let me try out the powered speakers as he said without a sub and more stuff it wouldn't compare. (I asked him if he got an extra kickback for selling the Bose system and he said that he did not). I figure that there are people on here that have used both types of systems a lot.

Can we compare systems on this forum or it just to promote the L1? Also, can the L-1 handle outdoor gigs? I see some posts that it can, but after Sat I have my concerns.

Other questions--does running a compressor effect on a vocal mike increase it's feedback potential? In tight spaces, what is the best feedback reduction technique? Are EV mikes or Sure mikes more or less prone to feedback?

Is there a better way to secure the T-1? At floor level with a big crowd, is it better to get the stick off the floor (as brought up in one post)? Would adding even more B-1s give us more punch and more volume and clarity across the room or are there diminishing returns with one stick?

I welcome feedback from people here, as I said I now have 10 days left to decide on keeping the system, and won't have another live show to demo it. Thanks.

If you are right about the square footage of the room, then you would probably have a problem with any PA system unless it was a pro sound company. That's a big room if you trying to get sound to the back wall. Plus if it is just two guitars and no tracks thats a lot of space to fill up. I have played some big rooms with my system and the first time I was concerned if it could handle it. Then I realized that if I had my old PA it probably could not handle the room either. You can raise the L1 off the floor to get above peoples head. You might try that next time. Plus keep this in mind. When you are playing for 400 drunks everybody is a critic and a loud critic. You can't make everybody happy.

Hello esquire1001 ,
Glad you found your way here . You'll get plenty of seasoned advice .
The system , in my two plus years experience ,needs to be elevated about two feet or so above large crowds . That is to say at least two feet of the upper stick's top needs to be above the crowds heads to get reflections off the back of the room . Four B1's assisted by a Packlite amp definitely help the situation . Of course the best solution in a crowd that large is one L1 per musician . With one, your half way there . Most musicians that go back to a conventional system , come back to the L1 once they are confronted with the difference in sound quality .
What I would do if I returned the L1 , is rent or borrow a conventional system , hold on to the money , then see if I'm satisfied with the old method again . My bet is that you will miss the L1 easy setup and sound quality and not miss ,"how do we sound out front". Best wishes - J.D.

A single L1, a noisy crowd of 400...hmmm. Difficult.
Do you like what you hear onstage thru this system?
It is worth sticking with?

It was for me, and I've adjusted musically, and changed my core audience to a quieter bunch.
It's not been unpleasant.
But I also understand the L1 is not for everyone.

The T1...there is a velcro wrap around the Cat5 cable that you can use to cinch all the mic cables to your mic stand "above" the T1. Works great.

I am glad I posted to get some feedback from other users. I think our old system (2 small FOH yamaha speakers (monitors really), 400 watt power amp and "powered" mackie mixer that we used only to power our floor monitor may also have fallen short in this venue, but as many people point out, I never really know how we sound "out there" because we only have audience members to give us opinions, most of which are not fellow musicians and there is no doubt the sound varies a lot depending on where you are with directional speakers.

The sound clarity from the LI was defintely better during sound check and at times during the gig, and we are able to hear more of the subtleties of our guitars and vocals.

It seems like two of these sytems might be the ticket, but my playing partner doesn't have the funds to shell out for one at this point.

I will wait to see if there are more replies and input, but at this point, my gut is to keep working with it, trying to get it off the floor next time as J.D. advised (just seems logical). Using the velcro to attach the cables makes sense, but I need to figure out access to the T-1 from the stagefront, so I may look into the mike stand attachment. If nothing else, I think the L1 would be a great rehearsal machine and will improve my personal vocals and playing by practicing with it at home.

As for the size of the gig space, I didn't measure it off, but it was a squarish room probably 50 feet deep and about 40 feet wide, with some spaces beyond those measurements (two bars, a entrance corridor). I would consider it a small to medium club venue, but not set up up for live music, more like a small warehouse. The space was normally used as a demonstration kitchen with a long counter and space for an audience to watch food prep. It was the type of space where a PA can get muddy, loud and too "echoey" real quick. We backed the reverbs off, but we are musicians not sound guys, so I suppose we will have to use some trial and error to get our sound. Another issue we had was trying to get the electric and the acoustic guitars to sound different--strangely enough they sounded very similar when the electric was going clean and normally this is not the case because the electric is coming out of the tube amp. Perhaps the T1 presets tend to start at a certain sound?

Hello Esquire1001,

Welcome to this community.

I think the word you use -- clarity -- is just right. It's my favorite word to describe what we all want the most.

I'm with drumr above in that I feel you're trying to do a lot with a single L1 speaker. Let me try to tie that comment to the term clarity.

What we know from our research and that of many others in the field of pschoacoustics is that clarity comes being loud enough, having the right balance of lows, mids and highs (I'm simplifying a little) AND, in the case of multi-voice-instrument music separation of the sources in space. In particular, separating voices and instruments horizontally in front of the head adds greatly to clarity. Sometimes this is referred to as "the cocktail party effect" referring to the fact that in a crowed noisy room you can usually hear an individual talking if you concentrate on them in spite of the huge amount of interfering sound. If you monauralize that environment, or multi-voice-instrument music it becomes much more difficult to hear clearly.

I encourage you to experiment and find out the limits of what you can do with a single L1 (and there is a lot) and then determine if and when you can at least audition a second. I believe it is very important to use the technology within its limits.

With best regards,

Ken

Hi Esquire 1001,

You may be doing these thing already, but if not here a couple of suggestions...

I would encourage you to be aware of the Highs and the amount of reverb on your vocal mics. Both can contribute to feedback and many times the small amount of cut needed to control the feedback will not be missed in the overall mix.

Getting used to the L1 usually takes a few rehearsals and a couple of gigs.

With all the mix coming from one source it becomes more important to separate the voices and instruments with EQ. Practice or rehearse with very natural vocal and acoustic guitar tones. If you avoid exaggerated low and high tones it will be easier to hear who is doing what.

I would "not" recommend trying to solve any issues you speak of at this time with the addition of more B1's. Sometimes more bass in the mix compounds the problems. With the exceptions of

1. very large rooms,
2. Large outdoor spaces, and
3. A bass instrument, drum, porchboard or possibly backing tracks,

two B1's can put out some pretty serious bottom end.

I haven't used the L1, T1 mount, but the mic stand mount allows the bracket to be placed on either side. When switching from side to side, the bracket must be turned over to securely hold the T1.

Hope something here helps.

O..

Hi, esquire1001:

Some additional comments:

While there is much made about the more even volume from the front-to-back of the room, there is still a difference with distance ... it's just not as pronounced as with a conventional speaker.

With a conventional speaker-on-a-stick, one generally would not place that speaker 18" from your ear!

If you can't get the L1 behind you more than 4', then a better alternative may be to have it somewhat to the side (as well as behind), so that you increase the distance between the L1 column and your ears. It's better (in my opinion) to hear the sound from the side than to have it too loud directly behind. ... That will also help reduce mic feedback issues.

The main drawback to "L1 to the side", using a single L1 and multiple performers, is that it *will* be louder for the performer(s) closer to the L1, so balancing your "sound" will be a bit tricker than it would be with two L1's. But, with rehearsal, you can get used to that difference, too.

Elevating the L1 a bit (18-24") can really help projecting the sound in a very crowded room. With a little creativity, that 'riser' can also serve to create a bit of a 'barrier' to keep folks away from the L1, too.

quote:

does running a compressor effect on a vocal mike increase it's feedback potential?

Since you ask, you have probably already tried this, and already know the answer. But running a compressor effect on an open mic will certainly increase its feedback potential. Compressors always have make up gain to compensate for the compression of the program peaks. The result is an average increase in volume -- and an increase in feedback potential with the mic in close proximity to the L1.
I'm not a sound guy either, and my explanation may not be precise, but I think this is the correct answer.
Also, it's been my experience that more than one (or two) mic(s) per L1 greatly increases the feedback tendency at high volume levels. Even so, this feedback is easier to pinpoint and eliminate (by methods described on this forum) than that of a conventional and feeback-prone PA and monitor system.

I'm a recent purchaser of a Model 2 with Tonematch.

I too am in an acoustic duo.
Our set up is:
- 2 acoustic guitars (Martin DCX1E and Takamine TAN16C)
- 2 Shure SM58 vocal mics

We both play guitars and sing - input direct into Tonematch - no other pedals or anything. We use the recommended presets for our mics and guitars.

I have looked at the wiki on minimising feedback.

I know we are probably stretching the L1 beyond its intended capacity..BUT with everything set, we get feedback through the mics if we try to push the master anywhere higher than 4.

Should we give up on thinking we're gonna be able to push the master volume past anything more than 50% capacity or is there something we should try?

We haven't gigged with it yet as I am concerned it will not be loud enough for the venue we are doing (especially with the master at only 40%).

Are there any acoustic duos in a similiar situation who have managed to push the master beyond 50% without feedback issues?

Hi Zerohour,

The amount of gain you get before feedback will be dependent on many things - and this may include - the size of the room you are in.

How big is the room?

You will probably find that when you get into a bigger space you can turn up the volume.

Can you tell us a bit about how you have things set up? I'm referring to the physical layout in the room.

quote:

Originally posted by Zerohour:
I'm a recent purchaser of a Model 2 with Tonematch.

I too am in an acoustic duo.
Our set up is:
- 2 acoustic guitars (Martin DCX1E and Takamine TAN16C)
- 2 Shure SM58 vocal mics

We both play guitars and sing - input direct into Tonematch - no other pedals or anything. We use the recommended presets for our mics and guitars.

I have looked at the wiki on minimising feedback.

I know we are probably stretching the L1 beyond its intended capacity..BUT with everything set, we get feedback through the mics if we try to push the master anywhere higher than 4.

Should we give up on thinking we're gonna be able to push the master volume past anything more than 50% capacity or is there something we should try?

We haven't gigged with it yet as I am concerned it will not be loud enough for the venue we are doing (especially with the master at only 40%).

Are there any acoustic duos in a similiar situation who have managed to push the master beyond 50% without feedback issues?

The shure 58's are sqealers. There are much better feedback resistance mics you can get, that will allow you more head room. Most hear love the OM5. I use the sennhieser 945e and just bought a EV N/D 967.

I started with the shures and liked the sound, but IMO both of the above mics sound better than the shure 58's and IME kill it in feedback rejection. I had both the beta 58 and the regular 58.

Though before getting another mic, check your setup up. I was able to get my shure quite a bit louder than yours. Check.

1. Gain staging, I recommend straight in with no mixer for the mics.

2. Mic technique. Lips touching the grill at all times.

3. Mic position. The, "reverse lemmy," worked well for me with the shures. Point the mic straight up to avoide any wall reflections.

4. negative EQ. I have a model 1 not a 2. On the remote if I am tring to squeeze out a lot of gain I'll turn down the highs and some of the lows. Turning down the lows will also reduce some of the proximity effect as the shure does have a bass boost when close.


With my EV mic and proper technique I can set my master at 3:00 and the mic channel level at 12:00. It's quite loud.

About the earlier guy..... IME an L1 at 50% "noon," volume would not be loud enough for a crowded 400 person venue with a noisy crowd. In this instance you would absolutely need a couple of very feedback resistance mics, good mic placement and good mic technique and turn the volume to 2 or even 3 and crank the system, and wear earplugs if you are close to the sticks and find a way to elevate some of the L1's speakers over the heads of the crowd. (Even a powerful traditional system would not make it through 400 people if it was body level, it would just get absorbed)

quote:

Originally posted by ST:
Hi Zerohour,

The amount of gain you get before feedback will be dependent on many things - and this may include - the size of the room you are in.

How big is the room?

You will probably find that when you get into a bigger space you can turn up the volume.

Can you tell us a bit about how you have things set up? I'm referring to the physical layout in the room.

We sit the L1 at the back of the rehearsal room. There is about 4 or 5ft distance between the two performers. We are about 7ft from the L1 itself. The room itself is reasonably small so we may find we can turn it up louder when we are in a bigger space.
However, yesterday I was just playing through it solo (one guitar, one vocal) and the mic was feeding back at about 1 o'clock and this was before I had played or sung a note. The mic and mic lead are brand new...

Hi Zerohour:

quote:

Originally posted by Zerohour:
We sit the L1 at the back of the rehearsal room. There is about 4 or 5ft distance between the two performers. We are about 7ft from the L1 itself. The room itself is reasonably small so we may find we can turn it up louder when we are in a bigger space.
However, yesterday I was just playing through it solo (one guitar, one vocal) and the mic was feeding back at about 1 o'clock and this was before I had played or sung a note. The mic and mic lead are brand new...

You told us everything except the size of the room. Please tell us what you mean by "reasonably small".

quote:

the mic was feeding back at about 1 o'clock and this was before I had played or sung a note

If you have the gain staging set optimally with the T1®, then 1 o'clock on the Master Level is pretty loud. Probably louder than I would want to have things in a small rehearsal room.

We have some notes that should help. See: Feedback / Microphone.

Also, if you have effects turned on, try the FX Mute button to see if that helps with the feedback. If you have Reverb turned on, this can be a significant contributor to feedback.

The room is about 10ft by 15ft at a guess.

Hi Zerohour,

quote:

Originally posted by Zerohour:
The room is about 10ft by 15ft at a guess.

If you have your L1® running with the Master Output at 1 o'clock, if everything else is set optimally - this is really loud - and in what I would consider a small room, I am not surprised you are getting feedback.

I imagine that you are just testing the limits, but you can't take what you experience in a small room and use that to predict what will happen in a bigger one. At least not until you have heard the L1® in a bigger one and found out how well it projects in a bigger space.