quote:

The only thing that strikes me right away is that now the soloing trumpets or trombones are to far behind the L1 to hear them selfs

Hi Chris,

This is a possibility. However, I think the "reach" of the L1 system, with its far-less-than-conventional drop-off with distance diminishes my concern here.

I'm trying to preserve the naturalness of the L1 approach -- audience and band share one sound field and musicians mix themselves.

This is a theoretical question that can help me further understand what's going on with this new kind of big band jazz: If each player had a volume control of limitless gain -- they could just make their instrument louder if they wanted -- would this (theoretical) situation work for the band and the audience?

Ken

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Walden:
Dear Nathan,
...But we don't. Music has evolved and we play a different kind of big band jazz today. The dynamics within the band has shifted over the last 50 years.

AH, YES! Good point! With what I do, I think "big band", and immediately hear the 40's bands in my mind.

quote:

It's no about the client or venue owner demanding the full 17-piece band. It's my arrangements that demand the instruments that I've written for. Try performing a piece written for string quartet only with two violins. You'll miss the viola and the cello part. The musical piece would not be complete. The same with my big band charts.

This was a case of not doing my homework, I'm afraid. Until I went to your website, I didn't realize that you were doing your own original pieces, or at very least your own arrangements. I was still thinking how I might hear a big band tune that I'd like to do, then my pianist works it up for the trio. I don't try to make it sound like the original tune, nor should it. Everything I do is adapted for the combo, so it was hard for me to see beyond that. Hence my question.

I get the quartet analogy, too, quite easily. It would be like ordering beef stroganoff, but only getting noodles and sauce.

Thanks for addressing my comments and questions, Chris. I appreciate it.

Nathan

quote:

Originally posted by Ken-at-Bose:
If each player had a volume control of limitless gain -- they could just make their instrument louder if they wanted -- would this (theoretical) situation work for the band and the audience?
Ken

Ken, I think that would be disastrous. Then each player would turn himself up when he can't hear himself, causing a chain reaction, so that it would get louder and louder. I think the key is: If you can't hear yourself, the others are playing too loud, and if you can't hear the others, you are playing to loud. I had discussion about this with my pianist Alan and we both think it's all about self discipline.

I was actually rethinking some of my comments I made yesterday about the evolution of big band music. Yes, we do play a different kind of music than the big bands in the 40s. But we still should be able to perform it the way they did it back then. It's the same with symphony orchestras. Even though today's symphonic composers don't write symphonic music like 200 years ago, but it is being performed with the same instrumentation.

I was close to selling my L1s after the last gig, but the comment about how the bands in 40s played made me think and gave my an idea. I'm going to have a talk with my drummer and guitarist about dynamics while accompanying a soloist. We should be able to play totally acoustically, meaning just guitar amp and bass amp, but no solo mics for the horns. And then we'll use one L1 for the piano and one L1 for the singer. That could be actually also used for the soloists when there would be enough space for them to come to the front for their solo. (Or placing one solo mic in front of the whole band, the soloist would walk up to it for playing a solo) I watched some old Basie videos, and that's what they did back then. When space doesn't allow a solo mic in front of the band, (like in most cases) then playing volumes have to be adjusted.

Here is a link to My Stage Layout in The Sketcher

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Walden:
...Yes, we do play a different kind of music than the big bands in the 40s. But we still should be able to perform it the way they did it back then. It's the same with symphony orchestras. Even though today's symphonic composers don't write symphonic music like 200 years ago, but it is being performed with the same instrumentation...

And many soloists with orchestras don't use amplification -- the orchestra is expected to be able to play under the soloists (whether vocal or instrumental).

So, conversations about playing under the soloist are real appropriate.

Another thought on layout -- with only two L1's (one for keyboard, one for vocalist), perhaps it would be an improvement to have the vocalist's L1 on the opposite side of the band from where she is standing.

quote:

Originally posted by Dan Cornett:
...perhaps it would be an improvement to have the vocalist's L1 on the opposite side of the band from where she is standing...

If we do that, we'd have to give her a monitor (with reverb, in front of her, per her request.) She wasn't comfortable having all her sound coming from over her right shoulder, and I have to agree that I'm much happier sitting centered in my sound field.

What I'd really like to try is putting that L1 about even with the kick drum and directly behind her, and running a direct out to the house to be used as necessary.

While we're at it, I'd love to take a line out from the bass amp and run a bit of signal into the same column just for some extra bottom end. (But only after we have these other issues sorted out, of course.)

quote:

I was actually rethinking some of my comments I made yesterday about the evolution of big band music. Yes, we do play a different kind of music than the big bands in the 40s. But we still should be able to perform it the way they did it back then. It's the same with symphony orchestras. Even though today's symphonic composers don't write symphonic music like 200 years ago, but it is being performed with the same instrumentation.

I was close to selling my L1s after the last gig, but the comment about how the bands in 40s played made me think and gave my an idea. I'm going to have a talk with my drummer and guitarist about dynamics while accompanying a soloist. We should be able to play totally acoustically, meaning just guitar amp and bass amp, but no solo mics for the horns. And then we'll use one L1 for the piano and one L1 for the singer. That could be actually also used for the soloists when there would be enough space for them to come to the front for their solo. (Or placing one solo mic in front of the whole band, the soloist would walk up to it for playing a solo) I watched some old Basie videos, and that's what they did back then. When space doesn't allow a solo mic in front of the band, (like in most cases) then playing volumes have to be adjusted.

Dear Chris,

I am amazed and delighted to read these words. I have been thinking about Duke Ellington the whole time we've been working on this but I've been too timid to talk about it. Usually this is not the case. There is a live recording of Come Sunday (I will send it to you) that I'm convinced uses no amplification at all. It is I believe at Carnegie Hall. It is the most exquisite example of musical balance I know. When the singer begins you can just feel the audience melt into a pool of awe. I've listened to this piece over and over again, trying to reveal its secrets. I am sure that you will hear it and instantly know what has taken me a decade to understand: after all, it is your life and your business and I am just beginning to understand music. Duke was in my opinion the best bandleader of all time. One reason I say that is that although most of the recordings are mono, you can HEAR EVERYTHING. The balance is astounding. On Come Sunday, this is brought to the highest high. The vocals are absolute king, or queen.

Cliff Goodwin, who was MD for the Cocker band for 12 years, and serves in that capacity for the 7-piece we use to demonstrate the L1 system, talks about many of these issues in this video. I hope you will take 30 minutes to watch it although I think it could be you up there saying some of these things. Perhaps you can make some additions?

What Duke got right (among many other things of course) is the balance. In the end, what he wanted musically was reflected in the arrangements and the execution. Rehearsals must have been fascinating and I am betting that they had much to do with what I am calling balance. You guys are too loud, you're not loud enough, I can't hear the xxx's enough, you guys lay out here, and so on. Does anyone know where there are any films of Duke rehearsing his band???

On the telephone on Monday I told Alan of an experience I had last summer seeing a contemporary big band. They are known for their incredible dynamics. But oddly, the performance did not move me. It was technically excellent, but it did not make me cry. Or laugh. Or make the hairs stand up. Or make me feel alive. Although "dynamic" -- the soloists were amazing, the rhythm section perfect, etc. -- it was still "on ten" all the time. Amped up -- all the time. They were performing, but they weren't really speaking to me, or with me.

So you break it down to its core, strip the music to its essence. That's what Duke did I think. (I don't know Basie's stuff as well, although I know a little about what I'm missing.)

What is it that I want to hear?

As to the specifics:

What if the singer had NO amplification? Could we do it? What if the piano could get no louder than a real piano? Could we really pull it off?

Now...

Add one L1 for the singer while keeping the band where it's learned to be. So she is Queen.

Experiment with the placement.

Get it just right.

You will invite your audience IN, instead of blowing them AWAY. You will put them on the edges of their seats, instead of the backs.

Chris, I am so inspired by what you said, I can't stand it. If you do pursue your plan, would you allow me to attend a rehearsal and performance?

Ken

[Ken-at-Bose removed a potentially hurtful reference]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Ken-at-Bose,

Chris' Sketch to which he referred 3 posts above.


-- click image to make changes to the live version --

quote:

Originally posted by Ken-at-Bose:
If you do pursue your plan, would you allow me to attend a rehearsal and performance?

Yes, of course.

Oh boy.

Chris, I will contact you by PM to talk about timing for a visit.

Ken