We are a 6 member praise band requiring 12 inputs. The church just bought us 2 L1 Model I wth one bass mod. each and one T1 each. We tried it for the first time yesterday and got up and running quickly, but are unsure of the best way to "plug in". We will be using this in both indoor and outdoor settings. The idea is to not need any other equipment or a sound technician. This is how we plugged in:

System 1 - 2 mics, 1 bass(no amp) and 1 synth on the T1 and a Roland electric kit in the L1

System 2 - 2 mics, and 2 electric guitars in the T1, but we will also add 2 acoustics. All with no amps.

It sounded ok for the first time out of the bag, but can use a lot of adjustments. Is there a better way to set up and is there a way to "link" the 2 systems together?

Simple advice for this novice please.

Hi RCDrafting,

Thanks for joining the message board. I am glad you are here.

If you have a couple of minutes, could you show us your stage layout? We have a tool for that: The Sketcher. You just use your mouse to drag instruments and microphones onto the stage area.

That would be a big help.

When you save the Sketch, the system will send me a message and I will post the Sketch here so we can talk about it.

Also - you asked about linking the 2 systems together. Typically you would not need to do that, so please tell us what you are trying to do and maybe we can come up with another approach.

Do you have any pictures of the band or the church? Maybe a website with pictures?

Thanks!

Thanks. I just sent the stage layout. I didn't have time for labeling. The two guitarists switch between accoustic and electric, but would be nice to have them all plugged in and ready to go.

The reason for the "linking" question is driven by the fact that one "can" hear that one instrument or vocal is comming from one side of the stage rather than hearing a mix. My thought is we need to push the speakers closer together. We had them pretty far apart. I'll work on getting some pics.

Hi RCDrafting,

Thanks for using The Sketcher! Here is your Sketch.



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quote:

The reason for the "linking" question is driven by the fact that one "can" hear that one instrument or vocal is coming from one side of the stage rather than hearing a mix. My thought is we need to push the speakers closer together.

Thanks for the clarification. Yes - you want to do some experimenting with the distance between the two L1®s.

How was the mix for the people listening "out front"?

We were just practicing, but I stood out and I could tell that the speakers were seperated. Our first test will be on the 14th outside for a picnic. I'll put the L1's closer together. I just remembered that optimal distance should be 7-8 feet. We were closer to 15+ feet apart.

Do you have any suggestions on how to utilize inputs? My first post listed how we had it set up the first time.

Hi RCDrafting,

Before getting into the details of the connections, how was the sound of the Bass Guitar and the Kick Drum?

I would normally setup at least two B1s, but if it sounds okay to you, then that's fine.

One way to get a sense of the difference is to take one B1 for one system and attach it to the other, and listen.

General stage layout
If all those Guitars are being played at the same time...
I would separate the two Electric Guitars so that you have one in each L1®.

I would also separate the two Acoustic Guitars so that you have one in each L1®.

Back in a sec with a Sketch.

But if you get back here before I do - if these are not all being played simultaneously, can you tell me more about what is happening? Are there four Guitarists or two or ...?

Hi RCDrafting,

Okay - we have 12 sources and 8 inputs. So we need to be clever about using the inputs, but we also have to look at getting some more inputs. More about the second part later.

In one band in which I play we have two of us who both play Electric and Acoustic Guitars and we both sing. Is that what is happening with your band?


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Looking at it this way I see six performers. Is that correct?

If so then we need to get a little more detail.

One Guitarist at a time
Let's talk about one Guitarist as representing how both of them might set up as individuals.

-= One input for both Electric and Acoustic Guitars =-
Does s/he use an effects pedalboard or something similar? If so, them maybe s/he can use that as a simple way to manage both Guitars.

In my band we would have some patches for Electric Guitars and some patches for Acoustic. Switching Guitars involved taking the cable out of one instrument, moving it to the other and then changing patches. Not perfect but workable.

If that could work then each Guitarist/Vocalist needs two inputs - one for the Guitar, one for the Vocal.

How does this sound so far?


Before I get into possibilities for the connections, do you have a mixer or two available? We are going to need them if you have them or we can look at getting a couple of T1 ToneMatch® audio engines ( T1®s) if you don't.

yes, this is what we have. Sometimes the bass player sings, so we should have five mics.

So far so good. That's basically what we did. The only differnce is one guitarist ran a line out from his amp. Next time I want him to not use the amp, but the effects pedal.

Oh, and we have two T1's. I had one on each L1.

Hi RCDrafting,

Here we go with five microphones.


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It looks like our we were typing at the same time a couple of minutes ago. Please look up and let me know if what I asked about the Guitarists sounds workable. Also - we are definitely going to need some mixers or T1®s. Got any mixers lying around?

Okay - I just saw your last two posts.

Working on it...

Back in a bit.

Hi RCDrafting,

Here is one way you could approach the connections.

Oh - I have added in some more B1s. Two for System 1 (Bassist) and four for System 2 (Kick Drum). You don't have to do this, but I think you would really like it if you did. Whether or not you need four B1s to support the Kick Drum voice from the Virtual Drums probably depends on the size of the room. Also - there is no particular reason to put the B1s on one side or the other of the Power Stands.

Here's the Sketch

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System 1 - left side of the picture
Power Stand Connections
1 - Bassist Vocal microphone
2 - Bassist Bass
3 - T1® #1
4 - not used

T1 Connections
1 - Guitarist Vocal microphone
2 - Guitarist single point connection for both Guitars
3 - Keyboardist Vocal microphone
4/5 - Keyboard

System 2 - right side of the picture
Power Stand Connections
1 - not used
2 - not used
3 - T1® #2
4 - not used

T1 Connections
1 - Guitarist Vocal microphone
2 - Guitarist single point connection for both Guitars
3 - Vocal microphone
4/5 - Electronic Drums

So we have divided the stage into two zones. Each zone is supported by one L1®



You can fine tune the on stage mix by moving the L1®s closer together or farther away.

There are lots of different permutations to explore with the connections.

Things to notice.

• Every sound source is coming through only one L1®.
  
  
• Each performer is hearing him/herself through the L1® closest to him/her.
  
  
• The Bassist control over his/her own sound using the R1 Remote. He/she should work with the R1 Remote settings for Channels 1 and 2. He/she should not make adjustments to the R1 Remote Master Level, as this will affect everybody on that side of the stage. I would set that at 12:00 o'clock - straight up, and leave it alone.
  
  
• I would designate one person on each side of the stage to manage the T1®
  
  
• On the right side of the stage, you do not have to connect the R1 Remote.
  

Does that help ?

Yes! You have just saved me a whole lot of time. We will give this a try and let you know how it went after the 14th. I'm sure we will eventually have to get more B1's, but at this time we are not sure where the money is coming from for what we do have.

One last question (for now). Since we have one extra input not used on the left side L1 and 3 not used on the right, could we try plugging the accoustics in those? That way we don't have to worry about unplugging the guitars.

Thanks again and God Bless

Hi RCDrafting,

Glad that made sense.

quote:

One last question (for now). Since we have one extra input not used on the left side L1 and 3 not used on the right, could we try plugging the acoustics in those? That way we don't have to worry about unplugging the guitars.

Interesting twist. Exploring the idea...

On the left side (green) I probably wouldn't run the Acoustic Guitar to the Power Stand Channel 3. If I was going to change things around, then I would

• Move the Keyboard input to the Power Stand,
  
• Put the Guitarist's pedalboard/effects unit into T1® Channel 4/5
  
• Put the Acoustic Guitar into T1® Channel 2
  

This keeps all the control close to the Guitarist and makes the T1® Acoustic Guitar presets accessible too.

On the right side (yellow) we could

• We could move the Electronic Drums to the PS1 Power Stand - Channel 1 or 2 then (same as above)
  
• Put the Guitarist's pedalboard/effects unit into T1® Channel 4/5
  
• Put the Acoustic Guitar into T1® Channel 2
  

Back with a revised diagram in a minute.

Hi again,

Thanks for busting me out of that line of thought that started before I knew that you had a couple of T1®s.

I like this set up better, but probably because I am a Guitarist, and this is closer to what I actually do in my setup.


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So now we have the System 2 R1 Remote controlled by the Drummer. S/he could run two lines out to the Power Stand and use different Presets. I would try one of the Kick Drum Presets on the Kick Drum patch alone, and everything else could be run through a separate channel using Preset 00.
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The T1®s should probably be controlled by the Guitarists since they will be using the most inputs. (Vocal, Acoustic Guitar, Electric Guitar). They each will have the responsibility for managing someone else's vocal microphone, but everyone will have control over his/her own instrument.
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For both R1 Remotes - set the Master Level at 12:00 o'clock - straight up - and leave it alone. Make any adjustments on the individual channels.

Hmmm. I'm liking this a lot. Good thought there RCDrafting!

Update:
We had our Homecoming picnic yesterday, but at the last minute everything was moved indoors due to threat of rain. When I say everyting, I mean everything. We had inflatable ammusements for the kids and people eating while we were supposed to play. We had a lot of compitition for sound. We decided to modify the arrangement you worked out. The only thing we did differently was not plug the bass and drum into the system. We just weren't getting the right sound with just two B1's, so we just used the amps on their own. So here's what happened, the third song in, I was approached by a senior person in our congregation requesting that we turn it down. There were complaints that we were too loud. That's when the problems started. There was no way to easily do that without another sound check because we had to turn down both L1's and the bass and drums. I'm not even sure they did that. We spent the rest of our time playing fidling with the voulume. One side of the stage couldn't hear the other. It was pretty frustrating. Unfortunatly, we don't have an easy way to practice with the system because of time constrants and the fact that we don't have it all set up in one location all the time. It's a long story, but basically, this system was baught for it's portability and ease of use and not a replacement for our sanctuary system. Bottom line is, we need to be able to figure this out so we can make these overall volume adjustments without screwing it all up. I realize that we may need to push the bass and drums through to aid in that, but we'll see. We need to be frugal and practical. My thought is to use a mixing board to run everything through to both systems and that way one person on the stage can control everything. Keep in mind that this was a rare venue. We are still happy with the system and can see many uses for it. We have a number of musicians that aren't in our band, but would like to use it and what we have would be perfect for them. Any thoughts?

Hi RCDrafting,

quote:

Originally posted by RCDrafting:
Update:
We had our Homecoming picnic yesterday, but at the last minute everything was moved indoors due to threat of rain. When I say everyting, I mean everything. We had inflatable ammusements for the kids and people eating while we were supposed to play. We had a lot of compitition for sound.

That sounds like a challenging situation, acoustically, logically, physically. Stressful.

quote:

We decided to modify the arrangement you worked out. The only thing we did differently was not plug the bass and drum into the system. We just weren't getting the right sound with just two B1's, so we just used the amps on their own.

We knew that you needed more B1s and that this might be a challenge.

quote:

So here's what happened, the third song in, I was approached by a senior person in our congregation requesting that we turn it down. There were complaints that we were too loud. That's when the problems started. There was no way to easily do that without another sound check because we had to turn down both L1's and the bass and drums.

This is the beginning of where I want to suggest patience and rehearsal. This is new way of doing things and it may take a few experiences to figure out how to make it all work. If you can get those experiences in rehearsal, it's going to be a lot less stressful.

quote:

I'm not even sure they did that. We spent the rest of our time playing fiddling with the volume. One side of the stage couldn't hear the other. It was pretty frustrating.

You can address this next time by moving the L1®s closer together. It may take some experimentation to figure out what works best for you.

quote:

Unfortunately, we don't have an easy way to practice with the system because of time constraints and the fact that we don't have it all set up in one location all the time.

This is a challenge for any ensemble with any system. There isn't much I can suggest that replaces real time with the system, any system, in order to master it. You've got a couple of things going for you though. The L1®s are in my experience, faster to set up and tear down, easier to move, far more consistent from venue to venue, than anything else I have used.

I'm just saying that it will take some and deliberate effort to rehearse with the L1® system, but overall, it should be easier and more consistent after you've gotten used to it.

quote:

It's a long story, but basically, this system was bought for it's portability and ease of use and not a replacement for our sanctuary system. Bottom line is, we need to be able to figure this out so we can make these overall volume adjustments without screwing it all up. I realize that we may need to push the bass and drums through to aid in that, but we'll see. We need to be frugal and practical. My thought is to use a mixing board to run everything through to both systems and that way one person on the stage can control everything.

Keep in mind that this was a rare venue.

This was a rare issue. So in your position I would not be trying to solve it by adding more complexity (a mixer) and spending more money. At least not immediately. Except that some more B1s would help.

quote:

We are still happy with the system and can see many uses for it. We have a number of musicians that aren't in our band, but would like to use it and what we have would be perfect for them. Any thoughts?

You're just getting started with a new way of doing things. There are a lot of moving pieces and some of those are human. You mentioned "we had to turn down both L1's and the bass and drums. I'm not even sure they did that". That's part of the puzzle — getting people working together and understanding that each contributor is responsible for him/herself and for the impact he/she has on the whole.

We have a series of short videos Playing better with the L1® - Cliff Goodwin that I'd encourage you to share with everyone in the ensemble.