I've been quietly reading these forums for more than a week as part of my research, and I am having a HARD time deciding between setting us up with multiple PASes, or with what Bose calls its "802 Deluxe Speaker System" Bose 802 Deluxe Speaker System

I like the PAS philosophy, but I'm not sure how large a space it will fill with loud, dance music. Our venues can really vary in size. Musiciansfriend.com did a really nice write up on the 802 ( Musician's Friend Review ).

Before anyone suggests that I take the PAS trial, please know that I live in a fairly remote part of Alaska and just shipping gear to me costs hundreds of dollars. A round trip for PAS gear could easily exceed $1,000. :-(

Are there any guidlelines to help with a decision like this? Is there some threshhold where PAS should give way to another sound system?

I'm open to a hybrid solution too which would employ both; I just need some experienced, trustworthy voice guiding me.

Hi Tom7

Decision criteria (and stuff you can share here so people can help). Not all apply to you...

• Live music or pre-recorded?
  
• Number of players and instrumentation and microphones
  
• Type of Music
  - you said loud, dance music... could you say more about this?
  
• Typical Venue
  - number of people
  - size / shape of the space
  - how much ambient noise
  
• Most extreme Venue
  - best / worst case scenarios
  
• *** Is this a permanent is the "installation"?
  - permanent
  - teardown, move around occasionally
  -- e.g. system owned by a community facility, setup for events
  - portable (band playing in different venues)
  *** probably doesn't apply here.
  

HI Tom7, ST can really enlighten you if you can give him the specifics he asked for. I just thought I would chime in about the good threads on the "Just for DJ's" section of the forum as there are some in depth discussions reguarding these two systems. Being that I own both systems, I can say that I love the pas and for the most part I don't plan to ever use anything else. However, if you need power beyond what the pas can provide, the deluxe 802 system is unbeatable in my (biased) opinion. If the pas is powerful enough for you, it is by far the best sounding user friendliest system available.

hope this helps

It does help, JGNelson, thanks. In fact, I'll have more questions for you I'm sure!

And thanks, ST, for making time to give me a hand. I've really enjoyed reading your posts over this week. Here are the answers to your questions

1) Live music only.

2) Players - Tom (bass, vocals), Chelsea (vocals, Ovation acoustic, Roland Fantom X8 keyboard), Mike (vocals, Yamaha Motif keyboard, Line6 Variax guitar, tenor sax), Ryan (Roland V-Pro series TD 20S-BK electric drums, vocals, occasional keys), Steve (vocals, Fender Strat, Fender Tele or Ovation acoustic), Debbie (mic'd Martin acoustic, vocals) and Barry (vocals, lead flirt).

Also, depending on the song, we tend to add additional (guest) vocalists, and additional instruments such as sax, trumpet, harmonica, violin(s), additional acoustic guitars, etc.

3) Type of music - We are very eclectic and we literally have 4 different band names so that we can target different genres with distinct "branding." Band A plays soft rock/pop covers for weddings, parties, etc. (The Receptionists). Band B plays country music -- loud and rowdy -- for dances in halls and outdoors (Northern Drawl). Band C plays pop and alternative rock covers for dances for a younger crowd in a gym on Baxter Street (The Baxter Street Boys). And Band D plays fusiony - folky - alternative originals to be listened to, not danced to, and our name in constant flux.

4) Typical venue - The Band A receptions have from 50 to 200 people I'd say. The Band B country gigs are smaller, but much noisier, and often outdoors. The Band C dances are probably 50 to 250 people, but these young dancers want to FEEL the music. And then Band D's music can be anywhere, but mostly to very small venues of 50 at best.

5) Extreme venues - The country band opened for Lonestar (circa 7,000 people?), and the originals band has played for around 20 people in a coffee house.

6) Permanent installation - While some playing happens in the same place on a regular basis, the gear doesn't stay set up there; it moves.

Thanks again, guys.

Hey Tom,

I'm confident either system will give you the output you'll need for the gigs you're doing. Using the Cylindrical Radiator(tm) speaker will allow for you to enjoy our new approach to live music while the 802's will allow you to continue to go with a triple system approach.

I can say that if I were you, and had the shipping dilemma, I'd ask the band a lot of questions about this new approach and guage how accepting they are to change.

While the new approach to making music is often a wonderful experience for bands, some bands don't want to change ... plain and simple. So get a read on where the gang is at. I can tell you from my experiences (and you've read many posts here and on other sites) that once you make the change to this new approach, it's hard to go back to the old way.

Does that help? Probably not as much as you'd like. It's a hard decision ... new approach vs. conventional approach. All I can say is that we are here to help if you decide to "go for it".

Steve

Hi Tom,

The Personalized Amplification System(tm) family of products represents an entirely new approach to amplifying live music. We believe there is nothing else like it.

The main benefits are 1) you hear yourself and each other better than ever before, 2) your audeience hears you better, 3) what you hear on stage is what is projected out to your audience as in an unamplified perforamnce, and 4) setup and teardown are much faster.

Private message Brendan-at-Bose with your address if you'd like us to send you a DVD that explains our ten-year research project.

You can play to an audience of several hundred at very dynamic rock and roll levels. When you play to bigger audiences, you set up exactly the same way but use line outputs from the Cylindrical Radiator(tm) speakers to a house PA system for folks that are further away from the stage than the first several hundred.

It sounds like you're getting more and more familiar with the new system. I think the main website and these Boards are excellent resources. Please let us know how your thinking evolves.

Thanks for your interest.

Ken

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Ken-at-Bose,

Tom7 Man does ST know all the right questions to ask or what? Well his answers will probably be just as good! Just thought I would chime in after learning a little more about what you will be using your system for. Knowing this, I would lean strongly toward the pas. Yes, it will be a learning experience compared to conventional equipment but the benifits are very much worth a little "new school" classroom time. The final exam is uaually simple, answered with lines like, "I'll never go back" and "I'll stick with it"

quote:

Originally posted by Tom7:
It does help, JGNelson, thanks. In fact, I'll have more questions for you I'm sure!

And thanks, ST, for making time to give me a hand. I've really enjoyed reading your posts over this week. Here are the answers to your questions

1) Live music only.

Excellent!.

Some of the key differences between
- the 802 III approach (3 tier) and
- the Personalized Amplification System™ approach (new approach)
are best appreciated by the live musician and his/her audience

Ken-at-Bose covered these "The main benefits are
1) you hear yourself and each other better than ever before,
2) your audeience hears you better,
3) what you hear on stage is what is projected out to your audience as in an unamplified performance, and
4) setup and teardown are much faster.
"

quote:

2) Players - Tom (bass, vocals), Chelsea (vocals, Ovation acoustic, Roland Fantom X8 keyboard), Mike (vocals, Yamaha Motif keyboard, Line6 Variax guitar, tenor sax), Ryan (Roland V-Pro series TD 20S-BK electric drums, vocals, occasional keys), Steve (vocals, Fender Strat, Fender Tele or Ovation acoustic), Debbie (mic'd Martin acoustic, vocals) and Barry (vocals, lead flirt).

Wow, sounds familiar. I play usually play in one of in three 'configurations' (we have different names too).
- an unplugged duo,
- standard 4 piece Blues/Rock band and
- a 8 piece incorporating a horn section (more R&B and Jazz oriented)
Two of us form the 'core' and the venue, audience, and occasion determine which 'group' will be playing.

quote:

Also, depending on the song, we tend to add additional (guest) vocalists, and additional instruments such as sax, trumpet, harmonica, violin(s), additional acoustic guitars, etc.

Sounds familiar.

quote:

3) Type of music - We are very eclectic and we literally have 4 different band names so that we can target different genres with distinct "branding." Band A plays soft rock/pop covers for weddings, parties, etc. (The Receptionists). Band B plays country music -- loud and rowdy -- for dances in halls and outdoors (Northern Drawl). Band C plays pop and alternative rock covers for dances for a younger crowd in a gym on Baxter Street (The Baxter Street Boys). And Band D plays fusiony - folky - alternative originals to be listened to, not danced to, and our name in constant flux.

Question: Of all of these which is the most common?

I counted 7 players (plus occasional guests)
- Tom (bass, vocals),
- Chelsea (vocals, Ovation acoustic, Roland Fantom X8 keyboard),
- Mike (vocals, Yamaha Motif keyboard, Line6 Variax guitar, tenor sax),
- Ryan (Roland V-Pro series TD 20S-BK electric drums, vocals, occasional keys),
- Steve (vocals, Fender Strat, Fender Tele or Ovation acoustic),
- Debbie (mic'd Martin acoustic, vocals) and
- Barry (vocals, lead flirt).

We have six Bose Systems available, but most often we use four because we play as the four piece blues/rock band most often. So back to the
Question: How many players do you have in the most common configuration?

quote:

4) Typical venue - The Band A receptions have from 50 to 200 people I'd say. The Band B country gigs are smaller, but much noisier, and often outdoors. The Band C dances are probably 50 to 250 people, but these young dancers want to FEEL the music. And then Band D's music can be anywhere, but mostly to very small venues of 50 at best.

Okay - I'm getting the picture... most of the time you're playing for less than 250

quote:

5) Extreme venues - The country band opened for Lonestar (circa 7,000 people?), and the originals band has played for around 20 people in a coffee house.

Congratulations on the Lonestar opener. Let's assume for now that you weren't responsible for the sound system to reach 7000 people.

quote:

6) Permanent installation - While some playing happens in the same place on a regular basis, the gear doesn't stay set up there; it moves.

Okay - so we'll treat this as a portable system that goes up and down before and after each gig.

quote:

Thanks again, guys.

QUESTION: Sorry I forgot to ask before... what are you using for a PA system now? You gave me all the instrumentation - which was great. It sounds like you might be running everyone into a big PA, and if so it would be good if you could tell me what it is.

It'll take me a bit to digest all this, but I'll be back to you soon.

Hi Tom,

Steve-at-Bose made an excellent point (not that he needs my endorsement) about testing the waters with the band.

Check your Private Messages:
(Near the top of the page click Go, My Space, Private Messaging)

Because it's not simple to send a private message to someone whose name is not visible on the screen...
I've sent you a private message that included Brendan-at-Bose. You can take Steve up on his offer for the DVD by replying to the private message. Brendan-at-Bose will see it.

Hi Tom7 - Welcome aboard. In comparing the PAS to the 802's as a "standard" PA system, you really aren't hitting on the the PAS' true strengths. Either system will deliver music out to the crowd, and do a good job. The PAS' clarity and dispersion make for a more "ambient" soundfield, and the 802 system will hit with more perceived "force". If you were a DJ, or just playing canned music to a crowd, Id say - your choice. But since you're a LIVE band...well, different story.

The true beauty of the PAS is for the musicians on stage, more than the audience. If your players are open minded and willing to put in a little work, it can be the best move you ever made. If you can get rid of the backline amps, have your drummer play tastefully, and get everyone playing through PAS' (at least 4, in your case - I don't think Cliff has written a "flirt" preset yet) you'll experience a sound and interaction onstage that you most likely have never witnessed. The first few times will feel really "different", but after you get used to it, it really is a life changing experience...I NEVER want to play through a conventional monitor system again.

The ability to actually HEAR the mix, control our own sound, and play with improved dynamics is something that has affected my band tremendously. The most common comment we get now is "Boy, you guys are tight. You must have played together for a really long time". Not really - just a few years. But we can actually HEAR each other and play off each other now.

So I guess what I'm saying is - there are a lot of good sound systems out there for the audience. But I don't know of any other system that can do what the PAS has done for us as musicians.

Thanks for this J.G.

Nothing like setting high expectations to make a guy work!

quote:

Originally posted by J.G.Nelson:
Tom7 Man does ST know all the right questions to ask or what? Well his answers will probably be just as good! Just thought I would chime in after learning a little more about what you will be using your system for. Knowing this, I would lean strongly toward the pas. Yes, it will be a learning experience compared to conventional equipment but the benifits are very much worth a little "new school" classroom time. The final exam is uaually simple, answered with lines like, "I'll never go back" and "I'll stick with it"

Back again Tom,

You said your lineup is
7 players (plus occasional guests)
- Tom (bass, vocals),
- Chelsea (vocals, Ovation acoustic, Roland Fantom X8 keyboard),
- Mike (vocals, Yamaha Motif keyboard, Line6 Variax guitar, tenor sax),
- Ryan (Roland V-Pro series TD 20S-BK electric drums, vocals, occasional keys),
- Steve (vocals, Fender Strat, Fender Tele or Ovation acoustic),
- Debbie (mic'd Martin acoustic, vocals) and
- Barry (vocals, lead flirt).

In an ideal situation you would have 7 systems (see notes in blue)

System (single bass unit) = PS1 PowerStand, L1 Cylindrical Radiator® and B1 Bass unit
System (double bass unit) = PS1 PowerStand, L1 Cylindrical Radiator® and two B1 Bass units

• Tom (bass, vocals),
  System (double bass unit)
  
• Chelsea (vocals, Ovation acoustic, Roland Fantom X8 keyboard),
  System (single bass unit)
  
• Mike (vocals, Yamaha Motif keyboard, Line6 Variax guitar, tenor sax),
  System (single bass unit)
  
• Ryan (Roland V-Pro series TD 20S-BK electric drums, vocals, occasional keys),
  System (double bass unit)
  
• Steve (vocals, Fender Strat, Fender Tele or Ovation acoustic),
  System (single bass unit)
  
  
• Debbie (mic'd Martin acoustic, vocals)
  System (single bass unit)
  
  
• Barry (vocals, lead flirt)
  System (single bass unit)
  

Notes

• Wiring
  It looks like every individual will be able to work with his/her own system without a lot convoluted wiring. Each system has two main microphone/line level inputs and two additional line level inputs. I think it's all going to fit.
  
  
• Different setups for different 'bands'
  This becomes really easy.
  With everyone having their own system, your sound system automatically 'scales' up to the size of the gig.
  
  I've spent hours/days/weeks (ugh - don't want to think about it)
  planning 'the sound system' when using conventional PA systems ramping up and down figuring out the minimum/optimal/maximum required to do the best job for the gig. This involved figuring out who needed microphones, types of inputs, cabling and conversions to get things into 'the board' and even how many trips it was going to take and who (or whose vehicles) would have to be involved.
  
  If everyone is responsible for his/her own sound nobody has to be the master planner. Not to state the obvious, but it's not obvious until you think about it.
  Duo - two systems (tight for space? bring one and share although two is astounding for a duo)
  Four Piece - four systems
  Seven Piece - seven systems
  
  No one individual is working harder because there are more players. Let that sink in...
  
  
• Debbie (mic'd Martin acoustic, vocals)
  If Debbie is playing in the loud bands (The Receptionists, Northern Drawl, The Baxter Street Boys)... then she might want to get a pickup for that guitar. Pickups seem like a compromise (or a travesty) but you get a lot of flexibility and resistance to feedback in return.
  
  
• Poor Barry (vocals, lead flirt). What a reputation!
  If Barry is at most gigs, then his system will probably double as the 'guest' system.
  If he is the lead singer, then when you have guest soloists, (lead guitar, violin etc.) those people are probably not playing prominently when Barry is singing, and the other way around.
  
  You could also have guests plug into Debbie's system since it looks like she'll have microphone line open most of the time.
  

Does that sound right to you?

You're going to be covered for all the situations you outlined except for 'circa 7,000 people'.

How's it looking so far?


edit: spelling, formatting, added notes under ' Different setups for different 'bands'

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

Good job ST.

Just to add to ST'S suggestions you can add a stereo 250 watt amp that will give you the ability to hook up 4 more B1'S 2 for Bass and 2 for drums this can help if you like a dynamic rhythm section [I believe a must for any live rock music]. Also our band does not use B1'S for guitar or vocals with excellent results at coffee houses or loud rock clubs.[Steve,Debbie and Barry]

Quote
" what would Jaco have done?"
Get high play great Bass and let someone else worry about.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve-at-Bose:
Hey Tom,

I'm confident either system will give you the output you'll need for the gigs you're doing.

I'm confident (excited actually) that an 802 Deluxe would do a great job for us and buying it wouldn't be a risk -- other than the ommipresent possibility that we may be performing blissfully ignorant of how we actually sound to our audience. I have horror stories. :-(

While I'm convinced that I want the PAS benefits, if it ends up that we aren't loud enough at these dances particularly, then the band will be perceived as not having enough energy, and no matter how good we may sound, being underloud, people will label the dance as boring and lame and will leave and may not come again if they hear it will be us playing again. Right or wrong, many people are just used to feeling the music as much as they are hearing it, you know?

quote:

I can say that if I were you, and had the shipping dilemma, I'd ask the band a lot of questions about this new approach and guage how accepting they are to change.

While the new approach to making music is often a wonderful experience for bands, some bands don't want to change ... plain and simple.

Change, for some of us in the band, is actually highly attractive. The challange to grow and evolve is one of the things we love about being musicians. Others in our band feel strongly that conventional wisdom is called "wisdom" for a reason, so doing things just as others are doing them is important and one of the things they love about being guitar players. ;-)

quote:

Originally posted by Ken-at-Bose:

You can play to an audience of several hundred at very dynamic rock and roll levels. When you play to bigger audiences, you set up exactly the same way but use line outputs from the Cylindrical Radiator(tm) speakers to a house PA system for folks that are further away from the stage than the first several hundred.

I wonder if I shouldn't be looking into a hybrid then, where I scale back on PASes (from 7 to say 4?) and getting an 802 Deluxe as well. Hmm. Thanks, Ken, with ST's help I private messaged Brendan for the disc.

Hi Tom,

NEBADON2000 raised a good point, that there are several approaches to supplement bass if necessary.

This is why I was wondering about...

quote:

QUESTION: Sorry I forgot to ask before... what are you using for a PA system now? You gave me all the instrumentation - which was great. It sounds like you might be running everyone into a big PA, and if so it would be good if you could tell me what it is.

This would give us and idea what you are used to now, and if there are components of your existing system that could be redeployed.

Hey Tom

About this (emphasis mine)

quote:

Change, for some of us in the band, is actually highly attractive. The challange to grow and evolve is one of the things we love about being musicians. Others in our band feel strongly that conventional wisdom is called "wisdom" for a reason, so doing things just as others are doing them is important and one of the things they love about being guitar players. ;-)

I'll admit to being a Guitar player.

There's some great information for Mike and Steve here:
Electric Guitar on the Support Site.

Mabey some one from bose can help here but a system like ST suggested with 7 towers and 9 or more B1'S should be able to out Rock an 802 Deluxe even with stage amps. Also be more adaptable to different bands and venues, plus all the other benefits mentioned by the many users in this forum.I have heard a band with 3 towers and 6 B1'S bring down the house in a 200 capacity rock club.
Tom I know you won't be disapointed with the BOSE 802 DELUXE but if another band in your area goes PAS you will know thats not what JACO WOULD HAVE DONE. Your idea of having the PAS as monitors and the 802's for big gigs then use PAS for smaller gigs is very interesting.

quote:

I counted 7 players (plus occasional guests)
- Tom (bass, vocals),
- Chelsea (vocals, Ovation acoustic, Roland Fantom X8 keyboard),
- Mike (vocals, Yamaha Motif keyboard, Line6 Variax guitar, tenor sax),
- Ryan (Roland V-Pro series TD 20S-BK electric drums, vocals, occasional keys),
- Steve (vocals, Fender Strat, Fender Tele or Ovation acoustic),
- Debbie (mic'd Martin acoustic, vocals) and
- Barry (vocals, lead flirt).

Question: How many players do you have in the most common configuration?

Debbie and Steve are actually only with us when we are playing as a country band. In the other bands it is Chelsea, Mike, Ryan, me and another guitar player depending on the genre as the core players.

quote:

Okay - I'm getting the picture... most of the time you're playing for less than 250

Actually, I've come to learn that the Baxter Street gigs are probably more along the lines of 400, and this is a frequent venue for us. Interestingly though, this is also the only gig where someone occasionally measures to make sure things are not too loud as the night goes on. How great it would be to not have to be too loud at the stage and still have adequate sound the back of the room. :-D

quote:

Congratulations on the Lonestar opener. Let's assume for now that you weren't responsible for the sound system to reach 7000 people.

Lets. :-)

quote:

QUESTION: Sorry I forgot to ask before... what are you using for a PA system now? You gave me all the instrumentation - which was great. It sounds like you might be running everyone into a big PA, and if so it would be good if you could tell me what it is.

Among us, we own 3 PAs. I have a Fender Passport Deluxe (250 watt) portable PA which I got in large part because the rumor is the speakers are Bose. This is our rehearsal and coffee house PA. Ryan has a nice PA ... top of the line Mackie powered speakers, Mackie mixer, monitors, etc. This is our main gigging PA, however Ryan co-owns this PA with his brother (who has his own band) and sometimes there are conflicts and we have to rent, or (more often) make do with a lesser PA that Steve has.

You can play very loud on the new system if that's what you want to do. The bands I've worked with can play too loud on the system, and I like my rock and blues loud.