After breaking out my old copy of Chris Thile and Mike Marshall's "Into the Cauldron" and that in turn bringing back memories of seeing them live it has once again lit my fire to use mic's (instead of pickup's) on our instruments for out live shows.

It's just that mic'd sound they get is so incredible it's hard not chase it.

Granted they have the blessing of playing in generally great rooms, with generally great engineers (soundmen) and always hushed audiences. Because most audiences mouths are wide open in amazement. And that not to mention they possess alien like talent and command of their instruments.

That said...anyone doing this with any success and if so any tips would be appreciated.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Joseph Hanna,

Good Morning Joseph,

After re-reading your description of your shows I set aside my usual mantra - "Just use a pickup".

StuartD (a regular here) just got a DP4099G microphone. You will probably find this interesting.

DPA 4099G Microphone for Acoustic Guitar

Thanks ST. Spent Sunday evening researching this mic. Gonna call them first thing Tuesday morning.

Anyone else???? I'm SOOOO tired of pickups. Aren't you guys???

I grew up in Topanga Canyon in the late 60's early 70's so I'm very familiar with Neil Young and Stephen Stills.....4 Way Street is still the bench mark for live acoustic guitars. Yes??

I want to go there in the worst way.

Contribute if you can

quote:

I'm SOOOO tired of pickups. Aren't you guys???

NO!
They cure so much mic technique & feedback trouble when used with L1s.

I know you guitarists are tone freaks, but really, non-guitarists don't really care about the the small sonic differences.
As long as it's a good song, well played and sang.
Am I alone is this opinion?

PS
Mic'ing a small amp is not nearly the trouble that a mic'd acoustic is.
I'd actually prefer to mic a small amp than take a direct guitar from a processor.
Feedback issues are rare in that case, as long as you keep the amp away from B1s.

LOL...leave it to a drummer !!

I'm no stranger to the value of a song at face value! I wish emphatically I'd have written "Yesterday" before Paul got all over it.

That said sonically PU's just plain suck. They're close and convenient and don't feed back.

Listen to David Crosby doing "Triad" and you'll see the world of a great song and great tone collide. It does happen yes??

Listen to Chris Thile and Punch Brothers. There is content AND tone.

The two are NOT exclusive are they??

Hi Drumr,

I can see where they are coming from. After reading into their music and venue description and ST's comments, I am sure they have a very intricate and particular sound, that hopefully their audience appreciates. I know that I would love to hear one of their shows, just from reading about them.

I would typically not impress people with my guitar skills, since it is mostly backup and I spend most of my studies and practice on vocals, but I am quite happy with the T1 presets for my Strat, LP Std and my newest favorite, a Larrivee D-03 (Oh, what a guitar). The D-03 is actually making me practice finger style again.

The T1, just does such an excellent job of bringing out the musical qualities of not only instruments, but I have never been more aware of what and how I am singing, now using the T1, with my EV-767. The vocal clarity, tone and deliver-ability have raised the bar. I have recorded over 400 vocals now with my T1/Tablet combination and it is just amazing what you can pick out and improve upon, now that you hear it all.

I would have to picture that they are now going through the same scenario with their guitars and all the fine nuances developed in their style of playing, especially with hearing it now through the Bose experience.
Good luck guys in finding and developing your sound, you have also come upon one of the best with guidance from ST.

Not sure what Chris is doing now, but the last couple of years he was with Nickel Creek he used a pickup for the live shows, in conjunction with a mic.

Personally I think there are several very good pickups available that provide the neccessay tone quality and dynamics to reproduce great acoustic sound, feedback free, at live venues.

All this is subjective so take this for what it is, one man's opinion.

If you learned to play acoustic guitar without a pickup, and developed a style that works well with a mic, then with a LR Baggs ibeam you can use that same style to get excellent sound without a mic.

Those who learned electric guitar first, then switched to acoustic with a pickup, or perhaps started with a pickup equipped acoustic, sometimes don't develope a style that brings out the true tone of an acoustic instrument.

Good acoustic tone comes from quality woods, well constructed, and vibrating. One must first choose a guitar (or other instrument) that responds favorably to their music and playing style. Instruments designed and built for fingerstyle won't necessarily sound good for bluegrass, An instrument set up for fast action jazz chord, or swing style of play might not stand up to aggressive, single note flatpicking.

I think without exception, all notable players of acoustic instruments will have an instrument and playing style that can fill a small venue with great tone, without amplification.

The point I'm trying to make is, a pickup can only work with the vibrations our playing style provides. If one plays softly but turns the gain up high they might get volume, but the tone would be lacking.

One more thought. Trying to capture the sound of our favorite recordings, while we are live on stage, is a worthy endeavor, but very difficult. Even our favorite live recordings are, in most cases, a different mix than the audience heard.

So, get a good instrument, develope a style that maximizes your acoustic tone, then research and install one of the modern, quality pickups and enjoy trouble free, natural acoustic sound.

O..

Hey Oldghm,

All very good points and can't disagree much with any of them. Or perhaps better put I agree with most of them Except to say for me PU's just really, really don't work.

That's not to say I haven't used them for YEARS and YEARS as I have but in the end I've grown tired of them. Yes I've used the ibeam and it's a clever, decent system. My present guitar won't support it (bracing issues) or I'd probably use it in conjunction with my M1.

All of that said and sticking with what launched all of this in the first place. Chris Thile has become the poster child of "no PU's" for live acoustic entertainment. The Punch Brothers have experimented heavily with what works and doesn't work in the world of live acoustic instruments w/o PU's. Of course it's morphed a bit over the last couple of years but lately has been a quasi-Bluegrass technique. If you've ever heard Chris and Mike Marshall or the Punch Brothers the sound is beyond great.

I'm no rookie. I understand that these musicians are unworldly and have uncanny talent and utmost control over their instruments. They also benefit from a usually hushed audiences. Further they seem masters at working mic's "Bluegrass Style".

That said I know PU's are workable and practical and easier but they (at least here to fore) have never been glorious. An UST has never made the hairs raise on the back of my neck To hear Del McCoury or Mike Marshall or Chris Thile or Vince play to a mic is glorious and though I'll never be blessed with that kind of talent I'd sure like to steal some of that tone for local live gigs. Maybe Bluegrass technique for pop acoustic?? Heaven knows a vast majority of local live entertainment here doesn't put that kind of effort into their craft.

I kinda want to!

Hi Joseph Hanna

You got me thinking, specifically about some guitars that haven't seen a lot of play time simply because they don't have pickups in them. Generally, I don't have time to play things that I won't take out live.

So I put new strings on one of those neglected guitars and pulled out a couple of different microphones.


I tried both an AKG C451 B and Neumann KM184. I was able to get up to what I would consider to be decent concert volume: What I normally do for up to 2500 square feet in a very familiar house concert venue.

I would use either one. They are different, but both produced stunning results. I was very pleased. I would use one of the other depending on which guitar I was playing. The choice would be just another one of those interrelated variables that make up your sound.

I tried the microphones in different positions but ended up with the microphone about 6-8" from the guitar, pointed at position between the sound hole and the 12th fret. I could have gone with two microphones but I was just checking whether or not I would consider using a guitar without a pickup, live. Again, the answer is yes.

I used the T1® with the Acoustic Guitar with condenser microphone. I left everything flat (no EQ, no effects). Yes - for a quiet concert, if I was performing seated, I could see myself using either one.



AKG C451 B



Neumann KM184



Thanks for the whack on the side of the head that got me to revisit my thinking.


edit: spelling / grammar

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

Hey ST,

Let's see...yes I've used/owned a 451 and I consider it (for acoustic sounds I hear in my head) the single best mic for detailed, crisp acoustic sounds. I've only used it for studio applications and it's no longer in my mic locker or it'd be my 1st choice for my "live" experiments.

The 84 and 184 are world class mics but were always a bit round and warm for my taste.

My first experiment will be with an Audio Technica 4041 simply because I have a couple sitting around

I've been researching YouTube and others for Bluegrass acts and have come up with some crazy good performances. Jerry Douglas of Union Station....jeez give me a break.

So the goal right now is to somehow work the pop duo thing crossed with Bluegrass Dance mic techniques. I'm on a mission and I WILL make something work.

Anyway I love the conversation and banter here...please keep the chatter going with ideas!!

Hi Joseph Hanna,

The Guitar I pulled out of mothballs was a Taylor 914 C. It sounded great with both microphones, but I preferred the warmth of the Neumann KM184. For other some of my other Guitars I definitely prefer the AKG C451. But I prefer some Guitars for solo work and others for duos and larger groups. I can see using a microphone on the Guitar for solo work. Using different microphones probably gives me more choices about which Guitars I use for solo shows.

When playing with others I think I'll probably stick with instruments with pickups. This just gives me the option to turn up the volume a little (more than with a microphone) when that is required. But for an intimate show as a duo, if I was going to use a microphone - I would probably use the AKG C451.

quote:

The Guitar I pulled out of mothballs was a Taylor 914 C. shows.

That's a heck of a guitar to put in mothballs

quote:

When playing with others I think I'll probably stick with instruments with pickups.

Yep I get that and agree. I have entertained some sort of PU as a baseline sound and a large diaphragm condenser to add room, air and guitars. Pu's also of course offer an immediacy in touch sensitivity that mic's won't provide until the guitar is physically very close. I like that immediacy and it can definitely be felt. That changes the way I create dynamics for sure.

I'll hit upon a combo that works one of these days and when I do I'll let you know!

Hi Joseph Hanna,

quote:

Originally posted by Joseph Hanna:
That's a heck of a guitar to put in mothballs

It's a fine instrument. I only mentioned the make/model here because I thought you would have a sense of how it might sound with those two microphones. It's a funny thing, but almost immediately after getting that Taylor (mid 90s) I came across something that just suited me better. So I put the Taylor away and kind of forgot about it.

quote:

Yep I get that and agree. I have entertained some sort of [pickup] as a baseline sound and a large diaphragm condenser to add room, air and guitars.

I find small diaphragm condensers much easier to manage for live sound for Acoustic Guitars. I also get the impression that they can be better for those detailed, crisp acoustic sounds, and air. I don't need to add room in live room. Am I misunderstanding you?

quote:

[Pickup]s also of course offer an immediacy in touch sensitivity that mic's won't provide until the guitar is physically very close. I like that immediacy and it can definitely be felt. That changes the way I create dynamics for sure.

I agree, and this is pretty much why I don't bother with mic'ing a guitar. Besides, to me, once you amplify an acoustic instrument, it becomes a different instrument. I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that taking an acoustic guitar, and mic'ing it with the express purpose of making it sound identical to it's unamplified self is the ideal, let alone possible, or even desirable.

To me: Once you amplify an acoustic instrument, it becomes a different instrument.

That is:

• Sound / Tone vs. Volume
  The basic tone changes because our perception of sound changes with volume.
  
  See: Equal Loudness
  
  
• What are you amplifying
  Even if you had the perfect microphone(s) placed in front of a great instrument - people don't put their ear(s) where you place the microphone(s)
  
  To my ears, the sound of an Acoustic Guitar varies greatly depending on the listening position. So what is the accurate sound of an Acoustic Guitar? When playing amplified, I want a great sound, but I'm not bound to the sense that it must be "the sound of my Guitar unamplified, only louder".
  
  
• Dynamic Range
  As you noted above you have increased dynamic range if you choose to use it. You can do this with a microphone, but I find that I except for very quiet live environments, I get more dynamic range with a pickup than a microphone.
  
  Note: If you use an L1® you have even greater dynamic range available to you compared to most conventional sound reinforcement rigs.
  
  Compared do to conventional (point source) systems: You do not need to be as loud at the loudspeaker (Cylindrical Radiator®) to reach the back of a room, so you can play softer. You can still play louder if you want but this basically gives you a wider volume range in which to work. This is one of those interesting outcomes of using the Cylindrical Radiator® — wider dynamic range. I find the same concept applies when talking about an amplified versus unamplified acoustic instruments.
  
  
• Greater range of sounds
  I can do things when amplified that would simply not be audible without amplification.
  
  This cuts both ways. Amplification brings out things I'd usually rather not hear like squeaky strings and thunks and unintentional thuds. But do any of those things intentionally, musically, and you've got a greater repertoire of sounds to bring to the mix.
  
  
• Technique
  When I play without amplification - playing louder means that I have to change the way I play a piece. I may strum instead of finger-picking. Or I my pick harder. This changes the sound. For good or bad, playing harder to be louder changes the nature of the sound. With amplification I can turn up the volume on the amplifier and not have to change my approach to playing.
  
  
  
• Sustain
  I have more sustain when playing amplified, and more so with pickups than with microphones. This sustain changes the way I play. My natural tendency is to fewer notes when playing amplified. The reverse is also true - I tend to play more notes when playing acoustically. I have to keep that reined in unless the song actually calls for it.
  
  

quote:

I'll hit upon a combo that works one of these days and when I do I'll let you know!

Please do.

Cheers!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

Hi again Joseph Hanna,

May I call you "Joseph"?

Please consider changing the title of this discussion

from: "After breaking out"

to something more descriptive like

"Microphones vs. Pickups: Acoustic instruments, great tone".



In most forums busy forums I would tend to gloss over topics with vague titles. It would be a shame if that happened here.

How to change the subject line of your post.





More tips about posting