I've got an unusual situation coming up this Sunday. There will be an outdoor worship service with a choir (28 voices) and a small band (guitar, bass, djembe). There won't be any back wall or shell for the choir, so they're going to need a monitor - both to hear themselves and to hear the band.

I use a pair of Rode NT5 ("pencil" style) condenser mics for the choir. The congregation owns "standard" sound equipment. I have two L1s (Model II) that my band owns, and was thinking of using those also, perhaps as the choir monitors. I was thinking of putting the L1s at the sides of the audience, about 1/3 back, and aiming them forward at the choir. I'm hoping that will keep the sound coming from the "low gain" side of the cardioid pattern but the choir will still be able to hear.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

I could also use the conventional speakers as the choir monitors and use the L1s for the congregation, but I think the L1s might be blocked when the congregation stands (happens often in Jewish services) and I've had really poor luck with standard point source monitors for a choir using these mics. (I often think the sound from the monitors, on the floor as a wedge, is bouncing off the choir and into the mics, creating feedback issues.)

Other info that might be useful: The outdoor seating area will be set up for about 250 congregants. Overhead tent depends on the weather forecast. There won't be risers, and I'm not sure there will even be a raised platform for a "stage" area. There are other multiple sound needs I'm not describing here - 11 inputs total, including a lav mic for the rabbi (her preference - I can't change that). We'll use a standard mixer to feed sound to mains and monitors.

Sorry for the long post. Just trying to be complete. I get just 45 minutes (and a large volunteer crew) to set this up, so we have to guess right the first time. Thanks for any help.

Bruce Morris

Hi, Bruce ... as I read your note, you are anticipating two issues:

1) The choir hearing the band adequately.

2) The choir members hearing each other well.

You did not mention the 3rd issue I would anticipate:
3) The congregants hearing the choir and the band well.

As I think about this (and I've done something similar before, with what I would call modest, not great, success), my first choice would be to place the L1's in the same position you might place conventional "speakers on a stick" ... except that I would be sure they are close enough to the musicians & choir that they can hear off of the "back side" of the L1s.

The main "trick" will be to have the choir mics -- and the rabbi -- be mostly to the side of the L1's ... just slightly behind (technically: if you draw a line through the two L1's, then the "least output power" from the L1's seems to me to be at an angle about 10-15 degrees behind that line)

              cccccccccccc           Band
            cccccccccccccccc         group   
          ccc              ccc       
                m1    m2                          P1
  L1               P2                L1
  

c == choir
m1, m2 == choir mics
Band group == all the other musicians
P1, P2 == two "good" alternative locations for the rabbi ... P2 is BAD, however, if the rabbi walks forward!!

In terms of mixer routing:
-- the band 'mono' to both L1s.
-- the mics I'd probably CROSS-feed primarily! That is, M1 goes primarily to the RIGHT L1 (in front of the band) and m2 primarily to the LEFT L1, with only a little 'bleed' to the other side if necessary.

I'd only put the rabbi's lavaliere mic in just ONE L1 (to make feedback management simplest) ... and, if she is at P1, then I'd put that signal into the LEFT L1 ... the one furthest away!

Thanks Dan.

Can you give me a guesstimate of how much energy comes off the back of an L1 compared to the front? Same question from "15 degrees behind" as you describe? Does it decay like a point source or like an array? This is great information, much appreciated.

Keeping the rabbi out of the path of an L1 might be impossible. I haven't worked with her before, but there's a reason she asked for a wireless lav. I'm guessing she likes to move a lot.

I'm going to see the space in the morning. Maybe there will be extra width to the sides of the congregation, and I can put the L1s there.

--Bruce Morris

re: backside volume

I haven't measured it (yet), but I play behind an L1 all the time at our church building (it's a combination of logistical, acoustical, and aesthetic factors that have me sitting behind an L1).

It's a bit softer than the front-side ... but louder than being behind a "speaker on a stick". There is a definite loss of the higher frequencies on the backside -- which is good for minimizing high-frequency feedback.

re: the "15-degrees behind" ... sure, it's still a line-array source --- but the amount initially projected in that direction is much lower ... in both volume and frequency balance!

The best thing would be to set up an L1 in a place where you can walk around it (front to back) about 10-12' away, play something pre-recorded of fairly uniform volume (e.g.: background-type music) and walk around it.

Thanks Dan -

I've never set up an L1 where I could walk behind it, so I was curious what that would be like.

I won't have time to mess around at this setup, so I'm thinking of ways to do this that will insure success the first time, or at least won't leave me dead in the water with something unworkable. You've given me some great ideas.

Thanks!
Bruce Morris

On the T1, is the pre-amp for channels 1,2,3 different for the XLR versus the 1/4" inputs?

The reason I ask is because the T1/L1 will be driven by a (non-powered) mixer via a snake. With the long runs, I'd like to keep that all TRS. With the cables I own, it will be cheapest to go in to the XLR input. However, if we'll get too much pre-amp hiss or odd impedance problems this way, then I'll bite the bullet and buy some TRS 1/4" cables. (And then not bother with the T1 at all - just go straight to the analog input on the L1 base.)

Again, thanks for any help.

Bruce Morris

XLR connection *does* have an extra stage of gain that you don't get when you use a 1/4" directly into the middle of those combo XLR's. 1/4" balanced is better ... or a pad ... or an XLR-to-1/4" adapter.

**DO** consider using your T1(s)! If nothing else, connect the wireless mic to the T1 (even though it won't be "close mic") and a headset Preset. Besides, if you have the T1's next to the mixer you can use several short 1/4" from the mixer to the T1's, and a long Ethernet to the L1's .... much less fuss!

If you group the choir mics into one T1 channel (e.g. via an AUX output, pre-fader, with faders real low or off), then those mics can be easily muted when not needed. Similarly for any band mics.

Time is getting short to consider details ... but don't forget the "principles" you are used to with the band just because you are adding choir mics and one for the rabbi, such as: use Presets wherever possible ... no effects (to start with, anyway) ... etc.

OK, now we're getting into those geeky tech questions I wish I'd asked months ago, but had no immediate need....

I've seen the posts about long Ethernet cables, and how they can go up to 50 feet (and probably longer) before problems set in. The question is, what kind of Ethernet cable are we talking about? Did you know that there were two "flavors"? This is not a Cat 5/5e/6 issue. Rather, the wire which makes up each line in the cable is either stranded or solid. The solid wire has better electrical characteristics, and is usually what you find behind the walls in most installations. However, it is stiff to handle. The stranded (sometimes called braided) wire is much more flexible, and is usually what is found in "patch cords" meant to go from the wall outlet to your computing device. Stranded wires have less desirable transmission characteristics, and the Ethernet spec says stranded cable can't be over 10 meters long (though you can find commercially available stranded cable over this length).

So, is it stranded or solid cable that can go up to 50 feet? I'll be sending my secretary to find some, whatever your answer is. I've got to go set up for tonight now.

Again Dan, thanks for all your help.

Dan, Bruce,

quote:

Originally posted by Dan Cornett:
1/4" balanced is better ... or a pad ... or an XLR-to-1/4" adapter.

The T1® Channel 1,2,3 ¼ inch jack inputs are unbalanced. Only Channel 4/5 is balanced.

The T1® Channel 1,2,3 XLR inputs should not require a pads.

reference T1 ToneMatch® Audio Engine

ST -

The following is a cut-and-paste from page 4 of the T1 manual that came on the CD:

1. IN – Analog input channels 1-3. Accepts XLR balanced cables for microphones, or ¼" TRS balanced or TS unbalanced cables for high-impedance inputs such as guitars.

Which is correct?

(And if you know about the stranded vs solid wire issue in Ethernet cables, an answer there would also be helpful)

(Obviously, I haven't left yet . . . but soon now.)

Thanks
Bruce

Hi Bruce,

Both are correct.

T1® Channels 1,2,3 can (physically) accept a balanced tip-ring-sleeve jack but the input connection is unbalanced.

From the wiki T1 ToneMatch® Audio Engine Inputs



Bill-at-Bose gives us the following insights into Channels 1,2,3 and 4/5

* For inputs 1-3, you can physically plug a TS or TRS 1/4" plug into the jack, and get perfect fidelity.

* If you have a balanced line source and TRS cable, and plug into an unbalanced input (1,2,3), you may not get as much resistance to induced noise or potential ground loop hum as you will if you plug into the balanced inputs (4,5).

* Our Master and Aux outputs are actually balanced, so you will have an advantage on noise if you use a TRS, but they accept a TS also. So there we also wrote that they "accept" both TS and TRS.

I have used a 50 foot Cat-5 cable with the T1®. I don't know if the cable was solid or stranded.

Bruce,

Short of cutting open the cable I don't know how to tell if it is solid or stranded cable.

Here is what is on the outer shell.


E200534 (UL) CM 24AWG /4P ETL VERIFIED TO TIA /EAI 568A CAT 5 PATCH CABLE FT4

Guessing and comparing this to some of my shorter CAT-5 patch cords, this is stiffer, so perhaps it is solid core.

Hi Bruce,

How did it go?

I'm doing some research for someone about using the L1®s for a large ensemble (similar to a choir).

Hi ST –

So sorry I haven’t posted with the results. I’ve been sick for almost 6 weeks, and threw my back out besides. The short answer: nothing is perfect when you need choir monitors, but the L1s worked better than a point source monitor. Long answer follows.

There are two stories here. The first is the one I posted about – the outdoor situation. In short, this one didn’t happen with the L1s due to the tent people being very late with the setup and the reluctance of the sound techs I hired to use the L1s, unfamiliar to them, with even shorter setup time than had been planned. We used standard (point source) floor wedge monitors that did not work well at all. The choir could hear the band, sort of, and couldn’t hear themselves at all.

The following week, back in the (rented) church, the L1s were used. We now have very good data on using a pair of L1s compared to standard (point source) floor wedge monitors in an identical situation. The short story here is that the L1s worked far better than the floor wedges.

To make this story clear, there were three “performances” in two venues. The first was day one of Rosh Hashana, in a rented church. The second was day two of Rosh Hashana, outside at a park. The third was Yom Kippur back in the rented church.

On the first day (Rosh Hashana) we used choir mics and floor wedges that are parts of the church’s sound system. The church has essentially an open stage about 2.5 feet high, 24 feet wide, 16 feet deep (approximate measures). The choir mics were on mic stands and were at a height of about 6 feet, placed at the front of the stage, about 16 feet apart. The monitor wedges were placed at the front of the stage, about 3.5 feet to the outside of the mic stands. The only thing unique about this stage is the back wall, which is more absorptive and distributive, sonically speaking, than a blank wall. It is made entirely of the butt ends of rough hewn fir 2x4s, sticking out at different depths. Looks like a sound dispersion unit you might find in a recording studio, only the entire back wall is made of this material.

On the third day (Yom Kippur), the floor wedges developed a bad buzz we couldn’t eliminate. Instead, the L1s were used. Very early in the setup process, I hurt my back very badly and spent most of my time laying on the floor telling people where they could find various pieces of equipment, but my wishes were not honored about the placement of the L1s. They were placed exactly where the floor wedges had been, angled in at 35 degrees or so, and facing the choir, not the congregation. This turned out to work amazingly well as a monitor. We still didn’t get as much gain before feedback as we would have liked, but it was far better than the floor wedge monitors from the previous week. The choir mics were just above the tops of the L1s. I think we would have had better results if the mics had been up a few more inches, but I couldn’t convince the sound techs to do that.

We used one feed from the main board into a single T1. From there we fed both L1s from the T1 using the ToneMatch port for one L1 and the Master Out for the other. The “Vocal Mics / Headworn Mic” preset gave us a little more headroom than the Bypass setting. We didn’t experiment much here – other settings might be even better.

I’m travelling with very poor WiFi access, and am not sure I can hold the signal long enough to use the sketcher. If that would be helpful, let me know and I will illustrate this setup when I get home on Tuesday.

This community has been very helpful to me. Hope this information is helpful to others.

Bruce Morris
The Mighty Filberts

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for posting this.
How is your back?

A Sketcher Sketch would be great - but that can certainly wait until Tuesday.

Thanks again for all the great details. Did you happen to get any pictures?

Here is the Sketcher link, as promised:

L1 used as choir monitor

My back is getting better. Physical therapy is doing the trick (as usual, this isn't the first time). Thanks for asking.

Bruce Morris
The Mighty Filberts

Hi RadicalDad,

Thanks for using The Sketcher! Here is your Sketch with accompanying notes.



-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend:
L1® Model II
T1 ToneMatch® audio engine

Quoting RadicalDad from The Sketcher

quote:

L1 model II used as a choir monitor.

The L1s were angled as shown, facing the choir, not the congregation. One T1 was used feeding the two L1s an identical signal, one from the ToneMatch port, the othe rfrom the Master Out. Signal source was an aux bus from the church's main mixing console. The sound engineer fed the choir mics and the small band (not pictured, offstage to the left) to the L1 monitors.

The Sketcher doesn't have a representation of the mic used. They are the very thin type (about pencil diameter) with a bulb at the end for the mic capsule. These are the type usuallly flown in classical concert hall venues, though these were mounted on mic stands. The mics were about 6 feet high and angled down toward the choir. The mic capsule was just above the height of the L1.