New topic for Tres (Troisnoir) spun off from
L1 exposes bad microphone technique in the Vocals Forum.

Moved Reply:

Hey Tom,

This has nothing to do with the L1 per se, but...

Rack your brain and see if there's any advice you have regarding the differences in playing in a band vs trio vs duo vs solo. Since you do them all on a regular basis, I'm sure you have some first hand user experience.

Not to pre-empt you, but for example, I've recently noticed that a "good" guitar sound depends on the environment, that is, I always thought a good acoustic guitar should sound deep, rich, with strong bass, strong mids, and clear ringing highs. That's the guitar I bought, since I play solo. I took that guitar to a band setting, and imediately disappeared in the mix. I guess that's why acoustic guitars on many band recordings are thin, chimey, and bright (a sound I spend years trying to avoid). But it cuts through, and makes sense, in an ensemble.

That kind of stuff. If you find there's not enough to make a presentation of it, so be it. There's lots of advice out there, just thought your unique situation of working in several different situations might give you an insight on some stuff.

Hope that all makes sense...

Moved Reply:

Hey Tres - Here is my 2 cents. I find when I play my acoustic with tracks I go for a thinner sound on the low end. When I do a solo song then I will boost the low end for a fuller sound. I also I will play "smaller chords", triads etc. and more hi string chords when playing with a keyboard player or another guitar player depending on the song arangement. I think in layers and find try to find the layer that is missing or needs help. Sometimes I get to be the frosting on the cake. Good to hear from you. Roy

Moved Reply:

Hi Tres,

If we call this 'arranging' then

Tom addresses some of this in the last part of his presentation on the video.
Tom Munch - Performing

Cliff Goodwin also speaks to this in his video presentation.
Playing Better with the L1®.

Roy has given you some great ideas about what Cliff Goodwin called 'arranging in space' with nice practical ideas about the chord shapes.

It took me years to figure out that the deep dark sound that I loved for my electric guitars, that sound that I listened for when buying instruments, that sound was going to disappear in a band mix. If I got a guitar that had it all, crystalline highs and big bold bottom, then could dial back what I didn't need. But if the guitar didn't have it in the first place, then I could not add it later.

For years I had this ongoing struggle with the bands with whom I played. They would want me to turn up during my solos, and I would want them to turn down. Part of this was my preference about volume, part of it was a matter of my sense of dynamic range in arrangements, part of it was simply - if the band didn't back off while I was soloing - chances were pretty good that I just could not turn up enough to be heard because of the basic dark tone of the instrument.

You have made a great observation - and to tie that back to the videos that we already have; I think you are talking about arranging, much in the sense that you do arrangements for vocals in parts, and instruments in their voicings, we get to do that even in smaller ensembles or playing solo. Tom talks about this and I think he said something about not competing with yourself (vocal versus guitar).

I'm playing with a Jazz Violinist these days. He is pretty good about staying out of my vocal and guitar ranges when I am singing. And I keep my guitar playing out of the ranges where he plays when he is soloing. He's been playing for 40 years so we didn't have to talk about this too much. But we both noticed that we have similar approaches to filling and not filling the 'holes' when we played with other people. That is, when I was playing lead guitar in groups where he was also playing. That's one of the reasons we sensed that we could work together.

So back to solo, duo, and larger ensembles.

I try to recognize each of the parts in the music. These would be each of the vocals as a part, and each instrument as a part.

To be more musical in the metaphor, I think of each part as a voice, and try to give each voice an opportunity to be heard in the time and in the way that is appropriate for the song.

Most frequently this means I avoid overlaps in frequency range and timbre. It isn't until you get into larger ensembles that you have groups of voices deliberately doubling for volume or other effects. Then I get away from thinking of each voice individually. But for one to four performers there is usually enough diversity in the sounds to strive to keep them separate with great results.

There are lots of ways to make each voice distinct when it needs to be heard separately: Frequency range, volume, tempo. There are lots of ways add interest, like doubling, parallelling, mimicry, call and response. You can do most of these solo, but it is a challenge. As you add more people it gets easier to do, but takes more coordination.

Let me encourage you to review Cliff Goodwin's video.
Playing Better with the L1®.

I find that what he has to say scales well from soloist to larger ensemble.

Roy and ST,

Thanks for the excellent responses! And yes, I realized that Cliff's video covers some of this, as well as Tom's video. It was really just an example of the differences between various ensembles and soloing; I thought perhaps Tom might think of more. And Roy, you'd be qualified in this area, too.

I realize band people play different than soloists, I was wondering if Tom (or Roy) had any observations regarding being the same person jumping back and forth from one to the other.

Anyway, thanks again for the input!

Hi all

This is exactly what needs to be put into a video presentation. Somehow we need to capture these concepts in audio and visual demonstration.

Who has the (budget/knowledge/altruistic desire).

Hi Tres,

Role Clarity
For one person to jump back and forth between band, trio, duo and solo performances, I think it is essential for that person to be fully present, conscious and aware of his/her role in each of those situations.


I have played in bands and duos for most of my musical life. Most of that time I have been in the role of informal musical director so that someone else could front the band without having to lead the band. I hope that made sense. I say "informal" because most of the groups with whom I have played would not have used that term.

Lately I have been doing more solo work and when playing in duos and groups I have more frequently taken the role of fronting the band.

Speaking from the perspective of one who frequently jumps back and forth between these various roles, understanding the role you are playing at the time is very important.

If I were playing with the same group of people all of the time, the roles might solidify and people would understand what they are supposed to be doing. But I am in and out of different groups and this requires serious, conscious thought about what I am supposed to contribute. It also takes the wherewithal to ask for clarity when it is not there.


edits; grammar

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

I barely have any time this morning, but here's one aspect we've only touched on - I work between bare fingers, fingerpicks, & flat pick depending on the group size & what I'm trying to do in each situation. I've been playing on flatpick a lot lately because it makes a more percussive high-end instrument sound that works well especially in my duo where I'm mixing with a djembe & two voices.

I realize a lot of guys don't switch between different techniques like this, but I encourage you to become proficient with bare fingers, fingerpicks, & a flat pick (plus anything else you can think of - Ebow maybe) because it gives a guitarist more textures & delivery to work with on acoustic & even electric.

Tom

Hey – I play a lot like Tom describes and didn’t really think about it till his presentation at Little Switzerland. I use multiple picks, fingers, whatever to get the sound I want (still can’t get the hang of that thumb pick thing). I started out as a drummer and then a bass player. I think this helped me realize that what I play is a part that becomes a complete song. I know some people who cannot, not play. They are going to play something, even if there is no need for it. Silence is also music. We as musicians, when playing with others, or even solo, need to listen. This has nothing to do with age or experience. By the way the club I play at is having Chritmas In July today so I am off to play Christmas Carols. If any of you want to come help me out you are more then welcome.

Hi Tom,

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Munch
I work between bare fingers, fingerpicks, & flat pick depending on the group size & what I'm trying to do in each situation.

That's an interesting thing to consider. I don't have the dexterity to play with a pick and have been a bare-finger plucker all along.

I take the same basic setup to every gig. That's my L1® Model II, T1® and single B1. For a bigger room I will bring a second B1.


Here are the things that change depending on the whether it's a solo, duo or bigger show.

Solo: (Acoustic)

• Microphone on a stand (Neumann KMS 105)
  
• PorchBoard Bass
  
• I have a preferred Acoustic Guitar for when I'm playing solo. My backup will be an Acoustic Guitar as well. I might bring my Classical Guitar for that and switch back and forth depending on the tune.
  
  If it is a Jazz oriented gig then I'll bring a big bodied electric jazzer.
  
  I am thinking about resurrecting some of my VG (Virtual Guitar) gear for solo shows. If I do that everything remains the same, except I would bring a 335 style Gibson with Roland pickup and might even run two L1®s in stereo.
  

Duo: (Two L1®s always)

• If I am fronting the duo I use the microphone on the stand (Neumann KMS 105)
  If I am support I use a head-worn microphone (Crown CM311a).
  
• Whoever is playing the lead role is probably playing a PorchBoard Bass. That may not be me.
  
• If I am fronting the duo, then I will use the same Guitar as when I am solo. If I am support, then I have a different Guitar for that (brighter). My backup is probably an Electric Guitar (Steinberger).
  

Trio (Three L1®s)

• Back to the microphone on the stand.
  When I get a wireless headset microphone, I will probably use that instead.
  
• I am probably playing Electric Guitar, but if not then I will definitely be using the brighter Acoustic Guitar. If it is an "acoustic" ensemble then I will likely play the Electric Guitar straight into the T1®.
  
• If there is a Drummer, then no PorchBoard Bass unless s/he brings one.
  

Four or more (as many L1®s as it takes)

• Electric Guitar with effects
  The choice of Guitar will depend on the style of music being played and who is fronting the band.
  

Yo Roy,

quote:

Originally posted by Roy:
... I started out as a drummer and then a bass player. I think this helped me realize that what I play is a part that becomes a complete song. I know some people who cannot, not play. They are going to play something, even if there is no need for it. Silence is also music. We as musicians, when playing with others, or even solo, need to listen. This has nothing to do with age or experience.

Great observation. Although with respect to listening, age and experience, it seems to take some folks longer than others.


I typically find that the more people there are on stage, the fewer notes I have to play.

quote:

I typically find that the more people there are on stage, the fewer notes I have to play.

Hi all
Interesting topic.
It works that way for drummers too.4 piece and up I tend to stop playing 16ths and stick to 8th or 1/4 notes on the high-hat and fewer fills.
Before the L1 I used to stop using brushes after more than 4 players but because the L1 projects the brushes so well I have used them with an 8 piece swing band no probs.

Wow,
Just want to say what a pleasure it is to play with other folks who think about this kinda stuff... IF I had a dime for every player who asked himself, " how do I stay out of the solo's way" ... I'd still need another 3 bucks for a a latte.

Point-of-origin advantage with an L1 per player is Huge in this as you guys know. Like panning the instruments in the recording mix.

I've been thinking about this some more. The most important thing with a band is having a tone that cuts. This can be accomplished by using a guitar with more cutting tone or by use of a flatpick or fingerpicks over bare flesh & nails for me. The important thing is being able to dig in a little & get a tone that fits in the mix in an authoritative way. It's not really the amount of bass in my tone (although too much can lead to the bass triggering feedback in the acoustic guitar) but the character of the tone.

I've lately been using bare fingers & nails or a flatpick solo with an under-saddle pickup & internal mic. For duo I find I have to use mainly the flatpick with the same guitar setup to get cutting tone depending on what my partner is playing. His conga doesn't mask my acoustic guitar as much as his djembe does. For the trio or any band I have to go to the under-saddle pickup through a Fishman Aura currently to get the cut I need. I mainly use the flatpick, but I can go to bare fingers & nails with the band & still be heard with the Aura.

Tom

I rarely if ever play in a band situation, just the occasional tune or two sitting in somplace.

I do sometimed jam with one or two other players, at their gig, not mine. when I find myself not hearing clearly I forget about "my" sound or tone, and try to find an unoccupied place in the mix.

Just last week I took a Model II and jammed with a friend at his gig. It took about three songs to get a sound that I could hear and wasn't masking his guitar.

When I got up the next morning I plugged the T1 into my system at home and there was no way I would ever play solo with that sound but, it worked very good with another guitar.

O..