Hello,

My band has been using two L1's for PA for over a year now. I'm at the point that I perfer using them to any other PA set up we run into, even most miced with monitor situations.

I am still having a problem with gain staging. We start out and every thing is fine but as we get to the end of the evening we're over driving. We have five vox mics and I've been using a mic on a kick drum but but since we have a separate subwoofer I'm experimenting with going from the kick directly to the woofer and taking that mic out of the L1 mix.

I don't know whether to run the L1's hotter and the mixer down or the other way around. Also I think the whole band prefers the grittier vox we get when we start with a gain on the mixer pumping into the red some. When I back off that the vox just don't have the same punch.

All the vol. controls/faders in the chain are set very low. For instance last night in a big auditorium I had the L1's set on about 11 oclock. The mixer faders were at about 60% and the master faders where at about 33%.

We covered the room ok but I'm just at a loss to know how to squeeze any headroom out of the setup.

Help!

Hi Royl,

Can you give us a bit more info?

What model L1?

What input?

Mixer make and model?

Any other gear in the signal chain?

Thanks,
O..

They are the older model L1. We go from the L/R pre eq output on a Yorkville powered mixer. We just use it as a mixer and for effects. We go into channel 1 in both L1 units (14 preset). Nothing else in the chain.

Hi Royl,

Go to the wiki and do a search for connecting mixer to L1, you will find a whole page of topics and suggestions that may improve your setup.

In your setup it seems you have eq control at the L1 remote, and individual volume control at the mixer.

It might be easier to control if you were doing everything from one or the other. Because you have more than 4 mics, your option is the mixer. Does the mixer have post eq, nonpowered outputs?

Are you running all mics through both L1s? Have you tried separating them L and R?

Have you considered pads between mixer and L1. They reduce signal strength and allow each additional stage to be optimized.

A setup that allows unity gain at all mixer stages and Master at or above 12:00 on the L1, will produce the best opportunity for great sound at the L1 speaker

Hope this helps.

http://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/inde...lopedia_FAQ_%26_Wiki

O..

I'll check out the wiki...

The eq is at the individual channel on the mixer.

All mics through both (have tried splitting and our way seems to work best)

Would you elaborate a bit on the pads and exactly what I need?

12:00 is where I've been trying to run them but every control seems to be "hair trigger" as far a gain is concerned.

Hi, royl:

I'm guessing ... partly because you didn't mention anything about it ... that the "Trim" on the L1 (at the PS/1, where you plug into the L1 'combo' input) is a bit too high for what you have coming from the mixer.

Check the LED on the PS/1 while you have the mixer cranked up to where you'd like to run it, while being REALLY LOUD right into the mics.

-- If the LED is RED, turn down the L1's Trim until it is only green.
-- If the Trim is at zero, and you're still getting RED, then (in the short term) you'll have to turn down the Master output on the mixer; longer-term, get a pair of Pads.

Dan,

Thank you for that link...didn't have it.

Exactly...on what's happening. I'm looking for the sound we need and I know it's there but there must be a very narrow "sweet spot" that I'm having a hard time finding. And of course finding it again in a totally different playing environment, like going from a small room to a large one.

I think the PAD thing is where I need to go. Am I correct in thinking it just cuts the signal -10db or so between the mixer and the L1's? I've never purchased or even looked at a PAD so I'm not exactly sure what I need.

Ok...
I looked PAD up on wiki and I see it just looks like a mic cable cuple. Except for the -20db suggestion for line out to a board or recording device they didn't give any specs.

Hi Royl,

-10dB, -20dB, this would be the spec. The pad allows both the mixer and the PS1 to work in their best range, by reducing ie. "padding" the signal before it goes into the L1. This might not be neccessary for channel 3 or 4, but 1 and 2 are more sensitive to high line levels.

The "hair trigger" you refer to is the result of this bit of mismatching output to input.

In your second post above you mentioned the outputs in use were "pre" eq, thus my question. Just for the sake of getting it right, double check that eq is working in your setup.

Im not very good with the links, but if you go to the wiki and search "connecting mixer to L1" there should be a lot of info, better, and more to the point than I am making here.

Hope this helps.

O..

Hi royl

Here is a link to information about mixer connections in the wiki.

Thanks ST!!

I checked the link...

Our mixer has a 1/4 pre eq out that we use. Doing it this way means that I can have individual eq control on each channel H/M/L. The post eq seemed like another complication with redundant eq.. Also we don't use the L1 remotes on either tower....it seemed to complicate things with redundancy.

If I read the link correctly...I shouldn't need the PAD if I'm using 1/4 inch cables?

Hi royl,

quote:

Originally posted by royl:
I checked the link...

Our mixer has a 1/4 pre eq out that we use. Doing it this way means that I can have individual eq control on each channel H/M/L. The post eq seemed like another complication with redundant eq.. Also we don't use the L1 remotes on either tower....it seemed to complicate things with redundancy.

If I read the link correctly...I shouldn't need the PAD if I'm using 1/4 inch cables?

Correct - using ¼ inch jack connections you should not need a pad.

So...

I'm back to square one on gain staging. Should we use Channel 2 then instead of Channel 1?

Hi Royl,

If mixer channel volume is 60% and master is 33% this suggests that you might not be getting the best signal to noise ratio from your mixer. Many mixers have a 0 mark or unity gain mark for channel and master outs that is a general guideline for best performance.

Regardless of size or type of connection if part of the problem is overdriving the input of the PS1, then it might be appropriate to use a pad.

Generally an out marked pre means it comes before something else. An output marked pre eq should not be affected by the changes one makes to the eq knobs, L/M/H.

If I understand previous posts you are running eq controls at 12:00. This is effectively flat, or no change is made from input.

I think you should confirm that you have eq control in your present setup. Should you find you do not have control try the post eq outputs. (as long as they are NOT powered)

You might be able to reduce the "hair trigger" issue with some eq changes on the vocals. Many mixers have an 80hz cut switch on the channel input, this can eliminate some unneeded low end issues. If you don't have the switch you might try using the Low control to make a cut for any vocal that doesn't need lows.

Channel 1 and 2 on the PS1 are the same. I assume you are using 1 for the vocal preset. There is nothing wrong with using 1 and / or 2, if you can get the result you want. Channels 3 and 4 are a bit different, although they don't have the preset option they "might" give a different result as far as the gain staging goes.

I recommend you setup at home and experiment some with the suggestions in this post.

It can be very difficult to trouble shoot these kind of issues with concrete advice or answers. Most of the time there is wiggle room, I might do something one way, you do it another but the result is the same. In your case there seems not to be wiggle room in your setup, change things around some till you find it.

Just a reminder, be careful NOT to use any powered outputs.

O..

I've set her up at home but before I respond let me do that again to make sure I'm hearing what I'm hearing. I'll post back when I can be more exact.

Thanks so much for the help/your time. I'll post back sometime tomorrow.

Hi Royl,

In thinking this over I wonder if you have a 7 or 9 band graphic eq on the mixer, and the outs you speak of are pre graphic. If that is the case I apologize for not thinking about that possibility earlier.

Let me know what you find out with your experiments.

O..

O,

Ok...the check did reveal a possible cause of my problem. I hooked up one mic with faders at unity and the L1 at 12 oclock. No clipping on the initial gain/trim knob on the mixer. and none at the master stage level meters Everything sounded perfect. That's the key I think...one mic vs. 5 live mics in proximity to both towers. All the mics are bleeding into the system. This inches the overall level up as our set climaxes.

If this sounds reasonable, would the PADs still be a good option? I also know we've been a little lax in the tower placement lately...I can correct that and get them farther from the mics (sometimes venue dictates) but I'd appreciate any suggestions.

Hmmmm, I know that open mics certainly add to the possibility of feedback. I am not sure how multiple mics might add to the signal to create a clip at the PS input.

While the signal level at the mixer out should be the same with one mic or ten, the signal content would be different with multiple mics, and depending on the content it "might" cause an overload. This might be a question for a mind greater than mine.

Did you confirm that eq was working from each mixer channel?

I know you like all mics to go to both L1s, but you might try to pan a little bit away from the L1 that is farthest from the singers position. Anything that will help the band to feel some dynamics, should help in keeping the overall volume down.

I know from my recent experience with a 6 pc band for just one song, with 3 guitars, bass and keyboard, all in amps and mic'ed, plus the drums mic'ed and all in the house system, my vocal coming from the comparatively small speaker of the Compact was the only sound that was clearly distinct on stage.

Let's keep thinking and tinkering. I know that others are succesfully doing what you are trying, it's just a matter of getting the right combination.

O..

O,

Yes the indivdual channel eq is working at the pre eq outs.

Once again you've given me something that might help...the panning. I hadn't thought of that.

I think I've asked this question in another thread...The mixer is pre amping the signal and then it goes into channel's 1 or 2 on the L1 which preamps the signal yet again. Is this a problem?