I am a drummer using a 'classic' L1 system, and have recently added the T1 mixer to my set up. I have my vocals and my kick drum through the pole.
The problem I am having is getting a decent level of volume from the pole using the T1. I am using an AKG D112 mic, and have set this up using the kick2 gate. I have got the gain on the T1 set so that it turns yellow, and then output via the main output jack out to input 3 on L1 base. I am quite a heavy footed player, so there is no issue with me not playing hard enough, but I am finding that even with the input level on the base right up to about 10, and both the individual channel volume and the master volume on the T1 more than 3/4s of the way up, I am simply not generating nearly enough volume.
I am at present only using two B1 bass bins and so I am aware that this will limit the level of the low frequencies I can pump out, but this shouldn't really make too much overall difference.
My vocal mic level is fine so there isn't anything intrinsically wrong electronically that I can make out.
On a related issue, as I am fairly new to the T1, if anyone has any suggested starting points for settings on the Parametric EQ, ZED, thresh, width etc options for a good general rock kick sound this would be appreciated.
If anyone can help, this would be great.
I've experienced that same thing with our drummer. He uses a Shure Beta 52A kick drum mic with "classic" L1 and 2 B1's, plus Tonematch.
I'm anxious to see if anyone can shed some light on this, but I can report that what I can hear sound clean and crisp.
Thanks for any help.
Which L1 are you going into and what channel at what volume?
When I use the T1 in a drum setup, I adjust the trim so it runs just below peak at the hardest hit (you can set the display to show input levels in the Prefs section), then I run the channel and master volume at 12:00 (the T1 will distort if you consistently run these levels past 12:00 which is unity on a T1), and then I run into channel 3 on my Classic L1 set at 4 or about 10:00. I then set the master on the Classic remote to the level I need for output level (usually 2:00 for most louder band gigs).
If you're going into a Model II you can turn the Master past 12:00 without distortion.
You shouldn't be going into a Compact with a kick drum unless you're at low volume, but I've found with. T1 the Compact will begin to distort with the level past 12:00 or so on channel 2. The T1 channel and master should be at 12:00 again.
I should also say that with a couple drummers we've found that with only two B1's we don't get the really low thumping kick as much, so sometimes we go for more of a popping kick sound that accentuates the bass guitar instead of a deep thump. We've found that it's better to have a thin bass guitar with a deep thumping kick or else a fat rumbly bass with a popping kick. This fits the mix better like an album mix.
This is true.
If you need more, the Extended Bass Package will give you a fuller, warmer sound, but don't expect it to give you arena sound.
The L1 is intended to sound natural, and that "extreme" kick drum you hear all the time, is not really "natural".
However, the L1 can make your kick sound really nice and full, if you don't demand too much. I don't.
If you engage the kick gate it is entirely possible to run the Master and the kick channel full blast without feedback,
as long as your gain control LED is NOT in the red. Then, you can just reduce the gain and volume on the other mics.
This will give you all the output the L1 is capable of.
Where are you placing your microphone for the kick?
I've had the best luck with the kick gate keeping the mic outside of the drum.
Going inside often let to misfires.
Keep the B1s close to you... I sit on mine , with a cushion on top.
I can tell you that no matter what you do, you are not going to get that DEEP THUMP from the B1s. I have tried all sorts of eq configurations and even ran a ddrum trigger thru an Alesis DM5 Module. It just doesn't get there with 2 B1s.
To augment the DEEP sound I am looking for, I have gone to my PreSonus Studio Live mixer and I am feeding the Bass and Kick thru a Subgroup. The output of the Subgroup is going thru a Crown XTi4000 power amp into a Yamaha Single 18" subwoofer. No problem getting that bottom end.
I ran sound thru my Dual Compacts with my band and it does wonderful in two places we play. The volume has to be kept at a minimum and the Compacts are perfect. Getting the DEEP sound thru two Compacts...not possible. Getting a great NATURAL sound...it really works! Last weekend I used the L1 Mod 1 with 2 B1s and it was great. The club loved it and thought it was one of the best sounds around. Next week, I will be using the 18" sub again to get that sound the CLUB wants...not necessarily what we want.
Great info on this thread! I have been using my L1's for FOH for a year now & really love the sound! That being said I have found what Tom Munch & Drumr to be true. The B1's have a very nice natural kick sound & work best if you accentuate the chest thud on the kick & let the bass guitar carry the deep notes.
Here are some more tips that I can give you.
*Tip 1)---> Get as much of the low frequencies out of the vocals channels by cutting from 250Hz & down...cut as much as you can with out making the vocals sound too thin. Also cut the lows on all channels that are not bass & kick (use your best judgment on where to start cutting depending on what is on the channel).
*Trust your ears... don't cut to the point where your mix sounds tinny...just get as much sonic mud (250Hz - 40Hz) out of the B1's as you can & this will give you more volume & clarity for the kick & bass...
**Tip 2)---> Use gates when ever possible...on what ever you can...once again trust your ears.
We've Got The Tools, We've Got The Talent! Ghostbusters
Thanks for all the relies so far - some helpful info here.
At this weekend's gig I had a real problem again with the Tonematch engine. I had the kick drum mic plugged straight into the T1, and then out via the master out to the pole. I was using the KickGate 2, and had the parametric EQ with a little bit of extra low end, a bit of mid rolled off, and the ZED-EQ boosted by 3db at 85hz.
I am simply getting nothing near the volume level (or the actual audio quality sound)that I should be getting; again, as before, I had to turn both the channel level dial and the master nearly all the way up and was still getting very little tone or volume.
When I played the kick drum with the lightest level of pressure, the B1s responded quite well, but when played at 'proper' level I just lost all bottom end volume and tone, as if something in the T1 (maybe the gate threshold??) is limiting it or stripping it out. I however tried various levels of threshold with no difference.
I am aware that playing with only two B1s will be an issue, and I am planning to buy two new ones asap, but equally I don't want to spend £500+ on these if I still get the same problem.
I tried changing the EQ, threshold etc.. to varying degrees, but nothing helped. In the end I turned the T1 off, put the kick mic straight to our FOH desk, added a little EQ and put it out via an aux to the pole. Whilst having to be concious of feedback because I now no longer had the gate, both the quality of sound and overall volume were far far better going this route.
This also proved to me that the issue I'm having is definitely with the T1 acting to cut both gain and low end somewhere, as opposed to the pole or the lack of B1s, because the two B1s when going 'straight in' coped fine and sounded great.
Whilst that sorted me temporarily for this gig, it isn't a solution in the long term and as I have just invested in the T1 specifically for the kickgate I am hugely frustrated at the moment!
Will simply having an extra two B1s remedy this problem? Are there any 'ideal' setting recommended as a starting point for the EQ, gate settings?
Any further help is gratefully appreciated.
What T1® channel are you plugging the AKG D112 microphone into. I hope it is channel 1,2, or 3 and NOT 4/5 through an adapter of some sort.
If you are plugging into channel 4/5 please try channel 1, 2. or 3.
Sadly I am using channel 2:- I have my backing Vic in channel 1 too, but they are coming out fine
Thanks for confirming the channel.
Is the channel 2 trim overload light flickering red when you hit the hit the kick drum? If so, please turn down the trim until you see only flickers of yellow. Then you will probably have to turn up the channel 2 volume to compensate.
For details see: Gain Staging a Microphone with the T1®
Please watch the short video below. It is for a vocal microphone in the the Model I, but the principles are the same.
--== click the picture ==--
Unfortunately there is no video for doing this on the T1® but the ideas are equally applicable.
Use the same microphone technique Steve describes in the video.
The colors on the T1® are a little different because the T1® trim uses 3 colors. You want to have a good solid green signal with occasional flickers of yellow.
If you are seeing flickers of red, turn down the trim.
For more detailed notes see: T1® Gain Staging.
Many thanks ST.
I have rechecked my gain levels as suggested and I did already have these at the optimum recommended levels as per your links.
I have a gig tomorrow night, and plan to arrive early and put the EQ settings back to 0db across the board, and try tweaking from there.
I'll report back with any good or bad news!
If I’m playing in a pop or blues band I’ll mic my kick. In the pop band I’ll use 4 B1s for more bottom end but not necessarily for more volume. I get plenty with just 2. I had stopped using the kick gate because of misfiring until I switched to micking my drums outside the kick as Pete (Drumr) suggested.
When using a Classic I put the T1 into channel 3 and I don’t use the R1 remote. I find it easier to gain stage the T1 without it.
I use a Kickport and I position my kick mic just off axis about an inch from the Kickport.
I always reload my scene so that that I haven’t got any unwanted eq or effects.
I set my T1 using the appropriate preset and kick1 gate. No extra eq no other effects.
I’m no sound guy; this is simply what works for me with lots of volume to spare.
I hope this helps
I don't know if this helps you guys, but our 5pc has been suffering a lack of air movement. Some of us prefer less bass drum, others prefer more. The venues we play prefer more, and sadly, the only way some folks get motivated to dance is with heavy bass drum to be their guide. For the longest, I avoided employing non-L1 system subs, hoping we could make this work. We ran 4 B1's for the drummer, but it wasn't satisfactory to him. I ran a pair of 18" subs with a Peavey CS4080HZ amp, and it worked great, but a bit cumbersome to revert to the old ways of traditional subs. Then I came across a smoking deal on a pair of Yorkville 1500W powered subs (LS800's) that I couldn't pass up. We can't turn them past 2 (on scale of 12) without causing folks in a club to groan because their retinas are trying to detach. I'm not kidding, these are scary powerful. I now bring just one sub, turn it to "1" and let it go. We get many musicians who approach us during breaks to comment on the system now, and none of them believe the gain setting on the Yorkville until they turn the dial for themselves.
Prior to employing external subs, people would start dancing somewhere in set 2 after liquid courage became their guide. On the first night of using the traditional subs arrangement, people were dancing during the first song. This isn't an exaggeration. Second time we employed the sub, same effect--people dancing in the first song. Then we got the Yorkvilles, and the same effect repeats itself at every show. I don't know why, I can't explain, it just is. Subs that move air move feet, at least in Birmingham Alabama. I hate we have to do this because it means more work and reverting to the heaviest part of a traditional PA, but I now make the drummer schlep the sub--not me! Again, everyone's taste is different, even within our band. But we've realized there's no arguing with what has proven itself.
Our drummer plays with a Roland RT-10K bass drum trigger on his traditional kit, and loves it. When we play acoustic shows, I run a Porchboard through my own L1M2T1 with 4B1's and a packlite, and it works great. Next stop, a looper so I can relax my foot! Dang Porchboard wears me out!
Just off the subject, but relative to the subject at hand. It was mentioned not to put the kick drum through a pair of Compacts. I have and can do this with ease. However, it does use some cleverness. I am using a ddrum trigger Mic with an Alesis DM5 drum module. It isn't super low and I can still hear it in the upper section of the Compacts. But, it is nice and at times I need to turn the.kick down. As far as running it through the T1 directly, it hasn't been done with either of my kick drum mics.
The L1 Model 1 with 2 B1s does an awesome.joh when.used with my PreSonus mixer. Not necessarily in a large room, but it does do.well. I have used the L1M1B2 with Compact daisy chained out to it from the L1. This is a great setup. Been asked to turn it down on many occasions from club owners.
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