Ok, I need some feedback on experiences from Vdrummers. I own the L1 Model II double bass system. (Granted, I haven’t taken delivery in the Tonematch yet). I also use several Vexpressions kits. Here’s my experience to-date. I really want the Bose to “be for me,” yet, so far I find the sound to be, on the cymbal side – a bit harsh sounding and on the low end – many of the kits (just T2, 3 & 4) waaaay to boomy. So, I spent a good long time tweaking all sorts of settings and made some marginal improvements but it was kind of hit or miss. Ultimately, spending that kind of time on every aspect of every pad setting seems too much work.

So tonight, just to test overall tone I went off to GC and tried the B-52 Matrix system. Now, I could never lug that around, but the tone was rich and well balanced (to my ears) and most of all, the kits that I used (I loaded them via the memory card onto the store machine – and deleted them after) were balanced sounding and the issues I described earlier didn’t seem to be there.

So, what are other vdrummer’s experience? Like I said, I want the Bose to be the answer (portability, dispersion, ease, etc) but I am not hearing what I think I should hear. I would value hearing from both vdrum users out there AND anyone from Bose that can speculate (and solve) what they suspect to be the problem. I should probably be clear and say I have the expectation that the Bose should sound close, equal to or better than, say, the B-52 in fullness richness and depth. Is that an unreasonable expectation? Thanks for any and all input.

Dstar

Hi Dstar, welcome back to the forums (if I remember correctly, we talked in a private message).

I wrote some about this Here.
Lots more in other posts...particularly my lengthy journey from acoustics to the TrapKAT & Roland TD-12.

quote:

Originally posted by Dstar79:
I own the L1 Model II double bass system. (Granted, I haven’t taken delivery in the Tonematch yet).

You probably won't need the EQ & Effects on the T1, as those things are controllable inside your module.
I occasionally use a bit of hi or low boost depending on the room, but nothing major.

quote:

I also use several Vexpressions kits...I really want the Bose to “be for me,” ...harsh sounding...waaaay to boomy.

Yes...the V-expressions are not configured with the Bose L1 in mind, it's a different animal.
You will need to dampen down the low rumble and lower the pitch of the cymbals and cut some highs.
I tend to have to adjust kick and snare drum sounds at the gig, rooms vary.

You should also add the Packlite amp and two more B1s. Major improvement in all instruments when you do.
Not only will the kick be 10x better, but all the drums will sound fuller, more powerful (even snare & cymbals).

quote:

Ultimately, spending that kind of time on every aspect of every pad setting seems too much work.

Yes, it takes a lot of work, but when you're done, you're done.

quote:

So tonight, just to test overall tone I went off to GC and tried the B-52 Matrix system.

Well, it's up to you to decide what kind of sound system you want, the L1 is a totally new approach.
I prefer being in the middle of my own mix with the L1, hearing much of what the audience hears,
not listening to a floor monitor or keyboard amp while the audience gets the "good" sound from the mains.
For me, the L1 covers both bases.

quote:

I want the Bose to be the answer (portability, dispersion, ease, etc) but I am not hearing what I think I should hear.

The L1 answers YES to 1, 2, and 3.
As for 4, you are not hearing what you are "used to" hearing.
It's different sitting in front of an L1, better in my opinion.
But you have to adapt, adjust, evolve. It's worth it.
You will hear yourself like never before.

quote:

Thanks for any and all input.

No prob.

Continue thru the Drum forum here at Bose, more posts about Vdrums addressing your questions exactly.
I'd look them up for you, but I'm a bit squeezed for time today.
Search for posts by drumsgreg or tberry too.

Bottom line: you must tweak the kits. It's not plug & play.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Drumr,

DStar, Drumr

Yes, that's right. You have to tweak the kits, in other words, select the right instrument that works. That's just a matter of knowing how you want to sound. On the other hand, not everone knows this or is used to it. My band's drummer submitted to a tweak session with myself and Gary the bass player, both of us being studio-savvy and having firm opinions on how drums should sound. I'm talking about for rock and roll and pop music here. The session took about an hour and Rod was thrilled as were we all when we played.

My band has been having (way too few) rehearsals, possibly to play out this fall. I sent a recording to my buddy Rick in Philly, who is always playing and/or producing music recordings. The recordings were made with a single AT stereo mic into a Roland R09 recorder and, for me, they sound amazing and beautiful. I just had to add a little bass boost. So aside from various comments, I asked Rick how the drums sounded. He said "great" and I said "did you know these were VDrums?", so he said "Hm, now I'll have to go back and listen again". So, you know what's going to happen: " oh, the cymbals sound digital" and all that mythology stuff. I hope he's not reading this because I'm almost certain that's going to happen. I don't want to affect the outcome, Heisenberg and all that. But I'm tellinya, those drums and a 4B1 system are killing me. They sound better than any amplified kit. Just get the right drum sound and play into the flat input. Rod McCarthy plays drums and he's got a newer Roland kit with the newest brain and he shows up with a pair of suitcases and the folded-up stand. Plug and play.

I think VDrums are the best possible drum for our system, having had lots of experience with both. It's just that many drummers don't want to play them, probably because they have to give up the almost-infinite dynamic range of snare. Even Rod tells me he "misses" the mechanical kit. But he sounds better, live and on recordings, than any drum set. And, no toxic headache and ear-ringing from bashing cymbals.

I'll post some of these rehearsal recordings someday. I'm on vacation next week, so not "now". (It's always "now", of course, but this is another matter entirely...)

quote:

they have to give up the almost-infinite dynamic range of snare.

Yes, hi-hat & ride cymbal too.

But your comments are right on Cliff.
Vdrums are killer in a "group" situation using L1s.
My bandmates prefer them, sound & ear-pain-wise.
They never want me to go back (not even to test the T1 kick gate).
It's a worthwhile trade-off for acoustic drums.

I had the same problem as Dstar in the beginning, not one kit sounded good as is from the Module.
I had to make them from scratch.

Our experience is that the cymbals all sounded fab. The tubs all needed attention, but snare, kick and toms were all in the brain, just needed to be found, in my opinion. I forgot the model number of the brain, but I think it's the latest one. These instruments will be getting better all the time too.

Thanks for the feedback from everyone. I am of two minds - I realize tweaking is necessary but I have been disappointed with my results so far. Some of that is a result of not knowing which of the multitude of COSM settings which I can tweak SHOULD I tweak to get the best results. This, I assume, will come with experience and time. On the other hand, with so many great kits available through Vexpressions, I hate the idea of countless hours spenton each of my favorite kits to get useable kits.

Currently, I am in a bit of a "disapointed" mode. It hard to not think, will I ever get the sound I want on any of the kits? So if their are vdrummers out there using the Bose and have achieved the sound they like, can someone share a sysex or better yet a TD0 of that. I can examine not only what instruments and settings have been used, but the trigger bank settings as well. This would be a wealth of education and insight into how folks have achieved the "sweet spot."

Thanks and I hope someone will consider sharing. Thanks.
Dstar

Hey boys, sorry been away to long , but the gigs just keep me real busy. The Vexpression kits are killer, but to use them with the Bose L1 needs some tweaking to get them to sound there best. I have tried other systems, but the L1 is the best for me and the group I play with.You have to work with it, but in the end you will hear what everyone is saying about the TONE of the L1 over other systems out there. I use 6 b1`s with my and some times I cheat and use an 18 Open baffle design with the L1, but you won`t find a better system for Vdrums out there than the L1. Greg

Hi Dstar,

I think it's easier to be disappointed by the sound of electronic drums than the Bose L1 system.
I find the L1 to be excellent with whatever you throw at it,
V-drums are a compromise regardless of the sound system you run them through.
I use V-drums for my back and my ears, not my drumming technique. In a perfect world, I'd use acoustics.
You need to consider which element is not working for you, personally.

As for the V-expressions, the sounds they offer seem best for headphones and studio recording.
I don't feel that they translate that well out live. Have you tried the "Gigging Kits" from Vex?
I haven't, I have only the Exotics so far and they had to be tweaked a lot.
In my experience you really have to dive into the programming of the kits.
You need to program them while running thru the L1 and in a room that is similar to a real venue.
I do a lot of tweaking on the job.

I have some sysex files...do you have the TD-12 or TD-20?
Do you have Vdrum Librarian? If so you can cross match the kits to different modules.

Are you asking for help with which parameters are the most important for tweaking?
I find that the deeper CSOM things (editable in the TD-20)are not so important as:
Shell depth
Head
Muffling
EQ & Compression
Ambience

You can do most everything with just those.

The new version of Vdrum Librarian WILL let you edit COSM on the TD-12,
but I find those parameters, Mic placement, Snare buzz, & Beater type are not so important.

I found that "mic placement" is pretty much just EQ. The closer the mic, the more treble.
Same thing with beater type. But my observations could be simplistic.

I constructed my main kit from the "My V-kit" on the TD-12.
I had to change tom heads to coated, and dampen, tighten them up.
Clear heads on snare and kick, "piccolo type snare".
Blanket or Weight damping on the kick drum (live rooms).
I rarely use Ambience unless it's a really dead room...I just turn off the master.
Sometimes turning it back on when I need a nice sidestick reverb.
So...is this any more help for you?

Out of time for now, will write more later. Any specific questions?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Drumr,

Drumr-

You raise many good points. I piped some mp3s through the Bose this weekend and it sounded simply superb. That gave me reason to be hopeful I can get what I want on the Vdrums. With as much tweaking as I have done, I did not do the obvious - which is to say, modify shell depth. It would be great to have a sound engineer instruct me on EQ and ambience techniques. (Does Bose make house calls?)

NOTE to Clif - if you can share a sysex or TD0 of the work you described in an earlier message, that would be an excellent benchmark for me to work with.

I do have Vdrum librarian - great tool. I have worked with mic placement and heads and muffling. Ambience is a mixed bag - it's a tough one - as is master effects. I am using a TD-20, so Drumr, if you feel up to sharing a sysex of a kit you are pleased with, that will provide a benchmark against which I can measure and begin my own tweaking.

I am anxiously awaiting the delivery of the T1 to see how and how much that goes toward making things sound better. Thanks everybody.

Dstar

quote:

I did not do the obvious - which is to say, modify shell depth.

Okay, now I see where you are and what you are dealing with. Shell depth is a really big point where the kick drum is concerned. When you need more bottom end, go Deep1 or Deep2, but you will need to muffle it more when you do. Clear head gives the most "click", Pinstripe gives the click and some "grain" to it. Coated heads don't work for me at all on kick, too jazzy, I prefer well defined and punchy in the mix. My favorite kicks are Elm and Meat.

You are limited a bit by only having 2-B1s, but I think you will still be able to tell a marked difference.
(I think you've seen my Vdrum 2/4 - B1 comparison video haven't you?)

Snare drums; thinner seems better to my ears, steel shells have the most crack. Tuning effects the snare a lot, muffling, not so much. Pinstripe and clear heads are my favs on snares, I like a lot of rimshot too. On my TrapKAT, as it has no "RIM", I use an edge pad and layer the snare and rim together for rimshot sounds.

For Toms I use Birch mostly and tune them high with a mix of heads and muffling dependent on the drum diameter, usually not a lot of muffling, one pc of tape usually suffices, maybe two on the floor toms. No snare buzz.
Bear in mind, your kit doesn't have to have "set matched" toms...pick what ever sounds good for the diameter.

Try going without any ambience and reverb, at first anyway. To me, the drums sound most real without it when sitting in front of an L1.

This all can be intimidating, but remember, all you really need is ONE good kit and you are on your way. After that, it's just a matter of copying and modifying that one kit for looser/tighter sounds and various percussion additions.

I will send you a sysex file of my main kits when I can get some time. I'm pretty sure the new Vdrum Lib will convert 12 to 20 for you, I know it goes the other way. BUT, bear in mind, my trigger arrangement is set up for my TrapKAT via midi and may not correspond to your Trigger Pads by default. You will still have some dialing to do. I think I still have Vdrum Documenter since my crash too, and can print out Excel spreadsheets of the instrument lists.

I sent the sysex of my very best kit to V-expressions and I don't think they were impressed...no reply. Too dead maybe, and tight, and dry by their standards, but they might be a good starting point for you. Then again, maybe they never checked it out.

If I could recommend one more thing, it's to look up your most basic "starting point" kit in your TD-20, and tweak it out, staying with just that kit for a while. Take some time with it...work until frustrated, then take a break.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Drumr,

Dstar, I think Drumr is on the money about the Vxpression kits don`t do well out of the box on the live with out alot of tweaking. I have the TD-12 brain and Larger Roland pads and kick for my setup, I use the Vxpression td-20 exotics kits converted to the td-12, these sounded great after I tweaked them to work with the Bose L1 and the type of music I was going to play! The kit I use is the Sonar Designer kit out live. I did some tweaking to the toms and the kick to get the sound I was looking for out live, the band loves this kit the best, I don`t use any ambience out live , the kit will sound just awesome without it. I also split the signal left with the snare, toms and set my preset on double 00, set the EQ as needed for the room. I set my signal right for the kick and use 73 on the preset, and set the EQ for the room as well. I use real cymbals on the kit. All the kits can be made to work, but you need to spend some time with the tweaking to get the sound you want. Tip, when doing the EQ on you setup, bring you kit volume up to the playing level when you set your EQ , it will sound better and you can hear all the changes, very easy to setup this way. I set my pattern to play number 1, hit play and bring up the snare and toms, set the EQ and then bring up the kick and set the EQ for that one. Then I listen to the whole kit this way on stage and out in the room. works great and fast

I love my Bose L1 alot and I have people tell me all the time my drums sound real, better than any kit they have heard in a live setup.you will learn alot abouth the Bose L1 over time and you will see what Drumr and I have been saying about this system.
Greg

This message has been edited. Last edited by: drumsgreg,