ST,

Help. I moved over here because I did not want to take away from bobalooie's topic. It looks like it could be one for the ages, and I did not want to take away from her effort. It has been bookmarked.

I want to post an engineering comment. Under 'Dual Mono", Hilmar-at-Bose states that two MONO L1s are undesirable because of degraded performance directly in-front of each L1. Most certainly true. Here is the thing. Hilmer has sent me down a whole new path of thought. I am trying to create a high performance B3 using only an XK-3c, Leslie 3300 and an L1.

The L1 is a wide-dispersion STEADY STATE sound source. The Leslie is a ROTATING sound source, the very purpose of which is "wide dispersion" sound. My success is based on whether I can create a UNIFIED dual mono system.

Wayne


Edited discussion title

This message has been edited. Last edited by: infopop,

Hi Wayne,

quote:

I moved over here because I did not want to take away from bobalooie's topic. It looks like it could be one for the ages, and I did not want to take away from her effort.

Agreed, in this context it warrants a separate discussion.

I've lost track. Do you have two L1®s?

quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Dempler:
...The L1 is a wide-dispersion STEADY STATE sound source. The Leslie is a ROTATING sound source, the very purpose of which is "wide dispersion" sound. My success is based on whether I can create a UNIFIED dual mono system...

The Leslie does indeed have "wide dispersion" and avoids the "hot spots" of conventional (single stationary cone/horn) speakers -- but it is definitely not a 'steady-state' sound source.

The issues which arise with "dual mono" are primarily due to the "static" (steady state) interaction when the same signal comes from two locations. Since the Leslie's output is NOT "static", there should not be much concern about the non-uniform sound field which can result from a "dual mono" setup (when using a single L1 and a Leslie).

Of course, there will be 'nulls' and 'reinforcements' which occur "in-sync" with the rotation of the Leslie, but they will be transient effects -- and that is a large part of the "Leslie" sound.


If you turn off the rotation of the Leslie, you may then be back into the "dual mono" state ... but probably much less so that if using two identical speaker systems. Since the two systems (L1, and Leslie--non-rotating) have quite different dispersion and "fall-off" patterns, I doubt you hear too much of the "dreaded dual mono" effects,

ST,

Only one.... brief review. The Hammond XK-1 was a disappointment. It was a "starter" Pro XK series keyboard. The idea was to get musicians using Pro series gear and moving up to the professional XK-3 (not XK-3c yet) B3 clone. "Keyboard Magazine" on the XK-1 said it best. Paraphrasing, "The XK-1 is the best B3 clone to date, the only problem is we could not figure out how to play it."

The problem was that anyone that could play it should have purchased the professional level XK-3 in the first place. Hammond, like Bose, is very responsive, and started a complete XK-3 upgrade to include what all the B3 professional AND HOME enthusiasts were asking for. A B3 console at home, and a keyboard on the road. The XK-3c LIFTS OUT of the console stand, and travels. Suddenly everything had changed. If any one is interested, the Tony Monaco pitch on the Hammond-Suzuki site is brilliant.

There I sat with the XLB Project components, a beautiful wooden stand, and literally every Hammond and Bose component had undergone a major upgrade, the XK-1 on performance and manageability, and the L1 on configuration and a much more sensible T1 cable solution.

I threw in the towel. Fortunately a friend took everything, and experienced really nice stuff for the first time.

Hammond was also moving on the marketing front, establishing Bose on-line type tech support, and a responsive dealer network. My dealer (will supply name off-forum) stepped up, and gave me a demo XK-3c, and let me wander, most of the day, around a major sound equipment outlet, connecting and trying things. The Leslie 3300 was developed, and is integrated with the XK-3c. I was looking for a "steady state" auxiliary amplification system to complete the B3 system. I must have tried at least ten, including some major names. They were all crummy.

So hear I am, right back where I started at the initiation of the XLB Project, looking at a new L1, that I just took out of the boxes, and yesterday set up for the first time. There is one very big difference. I now have most sophisticated, and highest performance B3 clone ever built. IT IS MISSING NOTHING. Seriously, I am thinking of ordering another one to have, just in case Hammond screws it up by making further improvements.

Two days ago, I listened to some Dr. Lonnie Smith, worked out some registrations that were close, and for the first time played some funky stuff, on a B3 IN MY HOME.

Hope this brings you up to date.

Wayne


Edit: Corrected Poster's name

This message has been edited. Last edited by: infopop,

I would like to add a little in support of the Hammond/Leslie thru the L1. Two weeks ago I provided my two L1s and four B1s to a Latin jazz band, De La Buena (7 piece) here in Milwaukee at Pier Wisconsin. The venue was a large outdoor tent with vendors and the band inside. I setup the two L1s out at the front corners that were being fed by XLR connections (00 preset, level 6) with no remotes connected. The board was a large one with 19 connections. The sound was just superb! Out back it was crystal clear with solid lows when needed. Up front it was at times muddy due to the monitors. The boards was panned L/R almost in stereo. The sound guy had a big smile. He was very impressed. Very clear he said. The Hammond/Leslie combo just sparkled. When I showed up it was like a yard sale, stuff everywhere. I thought hum city. Not one hum or buzz. I was impressed to hear the L1s work as hard. The inputs were not continuously on but maybe 60% of the time, never red.
It was fun to hear the L1s as they were designed.

Hi Wayne,

Thank you for the comprehensive update.

It sounds like you are having a wonderful time exploring all of this.

I asked how many L1®s you have because the dual mono "issues" seem most pronounced when you have two or more identical or nearly identical loudspeakers with overlapping sound fields.

Have you seen Cliff's article?

Unearthing the Mysteries of the Leslie Cabinet

Dan, paxflyer, ST,

Thanks to all for the comments. The fact that I really have two slightly different amplifier characteristics, that eliminates a lot of out-front phase cancellation concerns, had not occurred to me before. I think I really have a Dual Mono system, based on Mono I and Mono II components.

That is a VERY useful observation to keep in mind.

I can only dream about a Hammond/Leslie with two L1s and four B1s. I live, and would like to CONTINUE to live,in a Washington DC residential suburb.

Wayne

This message has been edited. Last edited by: infopop,

"Unearthing the Mysteries of the Leslie Cabinet", Thank You.

The scope of this Forum is mind-boggling.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: infopop,

ST,

An uncommon serious comment. Thanks for the link. It is PURE gold. It is well written, entertaining and the first written material that helps me use the Leslie as a component of "music creation", not just sound creation. Just a few revelations.

1. One of the treble rotor horns IS A CONTERWEIGHT. It does not produce sound. 10,000 thanks......details not important.

2. Booker T., I assume of the M.G.s, TOGGLES "rotor speed". I have always wondered why some of his B3 sounded so good.

3. Single note, root of the chord, and accelerate the rotor. I thought I had discovered something new. Sounds like someone came before me in 1981.

That is just three. There are twenty more. The Hammond documentation is great, but is oriented toward instrument management. Throughout the Hammond material, there are thoughts on "why" or "try this", but they are brief "Owner's Manual" comments. The Henricksen article addresses playing the Leslie as an instrument, and makes some IMPORTANT,, groundbreaking statements.

Under STUDIO PRACTICE

"The possibilities are only limited by your level of creativity and /or insanity."

Those interested in mental health issues will not want to miss the section entitled "Personal Madness". It is down near the bottom of the page.

Thanks for giving me the confidence to talk about MY PERSONAL Leslie problem in an open forum. Here goes. I talk to mine, for example, before a ballad. Like this........."Ready little buddy? E-a-s-y does it now."

Wayne

This message has been edited. Last edited by: infopop,

It is time for a little less humor, and a little more high quality technical input. I am looking at the "T1 ToneMatch Audio Engine" page with the "L1 System" logo in the upper left hand corner, Model II, T1 on the right. If you have anything useful to do, don't waste your time on this. Let's also do it "technical" with a long list of questions. I need to get some things decided in like the NEXT MONTH. Also, skip the grammar.

1. The second T1 plugs in "Analog Input". got the Aux PS, the Cat5e does power on the first one, right?

2. "Bal/unBal". That's mono/stereo, right? 1 or 2 conductor, both 1/4"?

3. Have never seen a stereo 1/4" with connectors on both ends. Is it used outside of "audio", like test or something"

4. For either one, I need 30'. On the One conductor, max length seems to be 14'. I hate cable connectors. It is a good cable/cheap connector problem.

5. I am a zZounds guy, is that part of my problem. Anywhere else, all I seem to be able to get is 1 or 10,000 search results.

6. BIG, HUGE...Can I run TOTALLY INDEPENDENT reverb from each T1. Do not need the marketing pitch. On a B3 system, reverb is like asset allocation. I lot helps, and separate locations cause a lot of good things to happen. Bad analogy......try it this way. XX-3c reverb, Ch.1 and Ch.2 independent reverbs can create ballads that will make you cry. (Ch.1, Ch.2 are the Hammond designations in the Xk-3c on-board computer that would each control two separate L1s.) See paxfler's cool post. Got to remember "hum city". I have never heard that expression.

7. There will be only one L1 and NO SUBWOFFER. The Leslie alone rocks, by itself, and never gets down to 100. It works so well that I have had to spend a FULL WEEK installing stick-on plastic and felt dampeners on all of the room doors, and kitchen cabinets, and I have yet fire-up the two B1s. Tech data: Standard kitchen cabinets resonate at A flat below middle C. Surprisingly, door vibration (same length) depends on floor location, first or second. The B1s will do just fine. I have caused some very talented people on this Forum to waste a lot of time on "below 40", a REALLY STUPID topic.

8. T1 inputs, talk about later. Everything is there to run paxflyer's two L1s. I say later because some of this is going to be XK-3c control TO each T1 control and THEN out. There are complementary OUTPUTS at the keyboard and 30' away at the Leslie. Do not miss the point that the Leslie set of outputs are literally 18" away from the L1 input panel. Of course both of them are 30" away from the two T1s.

9. Do not even think about moving the T1s. Has nothing to do with the dreaded bracket. The control functions on the Xk-3c are all on the left-hand side of the faceplate. The Percussion and some MIDI junk are out on the right. The wooden stand has been sized to accept two T1s next to the keyboard ALL PHYSICALLY IN-LINE. They all sort of become the "B3". You really PLAY all three. The table is natural clear Polyurethane and with the XK-3c wood cabinet and the Bose and Hammond black is "eat your heart out' beautiful.

That should get things underway. Again, DO NOT NEED URGENT HELP, like say a guy with a new L1.

One general observation. I am retired and I miss, and I really do enjoy the creative technical fun and games on the Forum. This particular post is really why I am here. To be honest, I still cannot believe a customer, after purchasing a technical product from a commercial manufacturer can interact with the engineers that designed the product. I am retired, high level, technical marketing. In my experience, this consumer arrangement is always sold by contract arrangement SEPARATE and at ADDITIONAL COST to the cost of the technical product. On sophisticated technology, it can easily double or triple the TOTAL cost. Not a pitch, just an observation.

Wayne

This message has been edited. Last edited by: infopop,

Hi Wayne,

Just a fly-by - Quick hits and low hanging fruit: Let me give you some background reading that should help on a couple of points.

quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Dempler:
It is time for a little less humor, and a little more high quality technical input. I am looking at the "T1 ToneMatch Audio Engine" page with the "L1 System" logo in the upper left hand corner, Model II, T1 on the right. If you have anything useful to do, don't waste your time on this. Let's also do it "technical" with a long list of questions. I need to get some things decided in like the NEXT MONTH. Also, skip the grammar.

1. The second T1 plugs in "Analog Input". got the Aux PS, the Cat5e does power on the first one, right?

Yes

quote:

2. "Bal/unBal". That's mono/stereo, right? 1 or 2 conductor, both 1/4"?

Bal/uBal does NOT equal mono/stereo. Both can be done with 3 conductors but the application is different.
Some reading should help here. Balanced / Unbalanced

quote:

3. Have never seen a stereo 1/4" with connectors on both ends. Is it used outside of "audio", like test or something"

This should be clearer after reading above referenced: Balanced / Unbalanced

quote:

4. For either one, I need 30'. On the One conductor, max length seems to be 14'. I hate cable connectors. It is a good cable/cheap connector problem.

For the ToneMatch® cable - you can use a network connection cable - up to 50 feet should be no problem. You don't need the fancy armoured connectors. See: T1® Cables

quote:

5. I am a zZounds guy, is that part of my problem. Anywhere else, all I seem to be able to get is 1 or 10,000 search results.

Sorry - I don't get the zZounds reference.

quote:

6. BIG, HUGE...Can I run TOTALLY INDEPENDENT reverb from each T1. Do not need the marketing pitch. On a B3 system, reverb is like asset allocation. I lot helps, and separate locations cause a lot of good things to happen. Bad analogy......try it this way. XX-3c reverb, Ch.1 and Ch.2 independent reverbs can create ballads that will make you cry. (Ch.1, Ch.2 are the Hammond designations in the Xk-3c on-board computer that would each control two separate L1s.) See paxfler's cool post. Got to remember "hum city". I have never heard that expression.

Same Type/Time/Balance of reverb for all channels, but Mix/Brightness can be done individually

I'll have to look at the rest in detail later.

Have fun Wayne!


edit: added reference to T1® Cables

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

Hi Wayne,

It sounds like you are having way too much fun.
You kind of shatter my headphones at home theory.

quote:

5. I am a zZounds guy, is that part of my problem. Anywhere else, all I seem to be able to get is 1 or 10,000 search results.


Sorry - I don't get the zZounds reference.

I take it that means zzounds.com
The Internet outlet like musiciansfriend.com.

BTW, check out that "ST", your post was barely up there and he had references and tips all over the place. Way to go man.

WOW!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: infopop,

ST, Joelheck,

Thanks, MUCH help.

Will be into your links early next week. On Musician's Friend, the "Live Wire Advantage Series 1/4" Straight Instrument Cable" (30') fills the bill. The zZound comment was related to the fact that the longest 1/4" Instrument Cable they offer is 13'. I found a 50' Cat5e cable at Office Supply that looks a lot like the short one that Bose supplied (Industrial type outer sheath). The ones at Radio Shack did not look like you could step on them.

Wayne

This message has been edited. Last edited by: infopop,

Hi Wayne,

Just chipping away at this monumental post. Where were we?

quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Dempler:
...

7. There will be only one L1 and NO SUBWOFFER. The Leslie alone rocks, by itself, and never gets down to 100. It works so well that I have had to spend a FULL WEEK installing stick-on plastic and felt dampeners on all of the room doors, and kitchen cabinets, and I have yet fire-up the two B1s. Tech data: Standard kitchen cabinets resonate at A flat below middle C. Surprisingly, door vibration (same length) depends on floor location, first or second. The B1s will do just fine. I have caused some very talented people on this Forum to waste a lot of time on "below 40", a REALLY STUPID topic.

Participation here is voluntary. Or in other words... "It takes two". Although sometimes it seems to take even more.

As for the cabinets, that's a little gem I'll store away someplace, if I can just find a place.

quote:

8. T1 inputs, talk about later. Everything is there to run paxflyer's two L1s. I say later because some of this is going to be XK-3c control TO each T1 control and THEN out. There are complementary OUTPUTS at the keyboard and 30' away at the Leslie. Do not miss the point that the Leslie set of outputs are literally 18" away from the L1 input panel. Of course both of them are 30" away from the two T1s.

Are you going to share some photos at some point?

quote:

9. Do not even think about moving the T1s. Has nothing to do with the dreaded bracket. The control functions on the Xk-3c are all on the left-hand side of the faceplate. The Percussion and some MIDI junk are out on the right. The wooden stand has been sized to accept two T1s next to the keyboard ALL PHYSICALLY IN-LINE. They all sort of become the "B3". You really PLAY all three. The table is natural clear Polyurethane and with the XK-3c wood cabinet and the Bose and Hammond black is "eat your heart out' beautiful.

I'll believe it when I see it.

quote:

That should get things underway. Again, DO NOT NEED URGENT HELP, like say a guy with a new L1.

One general observation. I am retired and I miss, and I really do enjoy the creative technical fun and games on the Forum. This particular post is really why I am here. To be honest, I still cannot believe a customer, after purchasing a technical product from a commercial manufacturer can interact with the engineers that designed the product.

Wayne, I've gotta tell you, as a customer coming to this message board the day after getting my first L1®, I was totally blown away to find the Bose engineers, including the Chief Engineer, The Inventor, the Product Manager, and well at least half-a-dozen at-Bose folks frequenting the message board. That early experience with Bose quite literally changed the course of my life.

quote:

I am retired, high level, technical marketing. In my experience, this consumer arrangement is always sold by contract arrangement SEPARATE and at ADDITIONAL COST to the cost of the technical product. On sophisticated technology, it can easily double or triple the TOTAL cost. Not a pitch, just an observation.

I think I understand your frame of reference. And yes, I have signed those kinds of contracts for ongoing, high level technical support. I never take granted, that which we find here.



Oh - I'm glad your found a suitable cable for the T1® ToneMatch connection.

Catch you later.

edit: spelling

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

Sweetwater Link

Monster Cable "SP 1000;21", 21' Male TS to Male TS, cost $149.00 each.

So that is why they are not widely available.

Thanks

This message has been edited. Last edited by: infopop,

Wayne,

Let me suggest that you check out this source for cables.

http://audiopile.net

and specifically this page

http://www.audiopile.net/products/Mic_Instr_Cables/UCGP...AD/GBAD_cutsheet.asp

CHECK the PRICES


Note: this vendor is one of the few that is mentioned by name as a supplier of cables for the L1® family of products. (e.g. recommendations for a TRS cable). ← that is just one of dozens of similar posts.

Consider it done.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: infopop,

quote:

I went after the 321 Design Group on the "uMusic" feature on, at the time, my new 321 Model II.

HI Wayne,

A few items, strangely as a former EE and software developer, I read most manuals and have written many Manuals, (although most was submissions to our internal documentation group).

I have the Bose LS48, a wonderful sounding HTS, with the uMusic system and on-screen display.
IMHO, the software application, is truly deserving of a rewrite. In their quest for simplicity, they left out functionality and ease of editing. It is also annoying to have one's xmas music, spill over into the jazz or easy listening presets. Technical support for that product, seems to be reading off canned database responses to possibly relevant questions.

Fortunately, the L1, T1 group and this forum, have really got it together. Their support and willingness to help out is better than any product group I have ever worked with. I have never experienced anything like this Bose L1 product and the L1 Forum, even at support prices for other products.

Surprising, since one would think that the market for the Home Theater Systems is so much larger, you would think their technical support group would be a bit more responsive.

I am not sure where you are coming from on Animal Planet, but my 2 dogs watch it regularly whenever I am gone off on a gig, to avoid separation anxiety, till I get home.

Hi Wayne,

I found my way to
http://www.hammondorganco.com/
(the Hammond Suzuki site?)

and enjoyed Jazz Master Tony Monaco on the Hammond XK-3c Pro System. Thanks for mentioning the site.

Course of Life
Nice to get to know you a little better Wayne. I wasn't directly involved in the some of the things you mentioned, but several people close to me were. Yes, those were times of disruptive change.

Photo Things
I understand that it would take a gigantic picture to see the detail of the settings. So for me, it is not about reading the controls. I was just looking for a sense of the room, where things are in the room, and how you have the L1® and the T1® positioned. I mentioned photos because I was hoping that they would help me to understand the physical layout and the spatial relationships between the various components.

You described most of this in detail, but I must read too slowly for my attention span or too quickly for my cognitive ability to cope.

So I'll wait until you have time to do a photo to augment the mental picture. But please do not go to any trouble to type more detail, or to take up the challenge with the camera. A snap shot from 5-10 feet would probably help me to understand. But take it as a gentle expression of interest, not a request.

A Guitar Forum?
I can see why it might seem that way. Perhaps this is a reflection of the population of performing musicians who also frequent the Internet. It seems to mirror what I see in many music stores if one were to look at square footage of retail space devoted to various musical pursuits. But that impression should be tempered with the knowledge that the observer, me, well of course, I am a guitar player.

For respite read a bit of Cliff's background on his Cliff Henrickson myspace page. I think you will get a kick out of the story.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,