New discussion for Wayne Dempler.

This is a spin-off from New vs. Old L1 Systems

Moved Reply:

To All/Progress Report

I am using my L1 Classic System to develop the Virtual Reality Experience of playing an XK-1 organ and a computer generated vibraphone, as played by Bobby Hutcherson, as a MEMBER of the actual recorded performances by 100 ACTUAL modern jazz groups. The time period is from 1960 to present. The living group accompaniment performances are by the actual group artists. The performances by the deceased groups are recreated. For example, Dave Brubeck mastered and plays piano accompaniment on his set of performances. The classic Miles Davis 1960 "Kind of Blue" album group accomaniments on "So What" are played by studio musicians, using the actual 1960 "So What" score, and mastered by Jamey Abersold. The recorded accompaniments were created by Abersold, and he coordinates the management of the library of CDs and the associated sheet music in C, B Flat and E Flat.

I am not a musician, but would very much appreciate comments from musicians on the forum. I am a retired enginner, living in DC, who who has spent the major portion of my career on the conceptual development and detailed design of propulsion engines for the Manned Mars Missions. I attended Carnegie Tech from 1956 to 1960. Modern Jazz had just started to develop and was being played at the University concert hall, and two off campus clubs. I was unbelievably fortunate to listen to live performances and talk many weekends with the musicians between and after performances. Names you might recognize today are Stan Kenton with Lee Konitz and Maynard Ferguson and a vocalist named June Christy. The Four Freshman, the original group with Don Barbour. Dizzy Gillespie with varied sideman ("Night in Tunisia") period. Art Blakey, at the Crawford Grill, who later formed the Jazz Messengers.

The above information is provided to promote discussion.Please DO NOT POST comments any of the above information in this forum.
1.Search "Modern Jazz" on Google. There are comprehensive sites. Virtually all the music is now available on Amazon. Much of the early music has been digitally re-mastered.
2.The Microsoft Site has excellent Virtual Reality forums. The project described above sounds intiminating. It is not. It is where the X-Box games your children play start. At the Microsoft site, search "Flight Simulator". It creates the visual and audio experience of flying an airplane. It is a mature product and has an outstanding web site.
3.A complete description of the Aebersold library can be found on the Aebersold site. Something to consider is that the CDs and associated music is also available at professional music stores. I would recommend looking in person, because the tempos and key signatures are fixed. I find a BPM of 240 for "Love for Sale" on the new Joey DeFrancesco release is simply too fast. There is a way to vary tempo and key signatures. It requires the use of relatively expensive pro level equipment. It is used by professional musicians to work out arrangements. For example, a group may want to try "Green Dolphin Street" at fast and slow tempos. Singers use it find their best tempo at home without causing the accompaniment group to play a song in say six keys.

ST

Thanks for the forum directions. You handle the difficult challenge of different disciplines posting very well. Enginnering forums are an ongoing nightmare. There are usually members of six different diciplines working on three different aspects of a problem. Even the best solution keeps excluding and overwrighting posts. Thanks for the old/new clarification. More later on the 2 new B1s.

Tom

Thank you for posting the strings. I have been been online all week and have learned a lot. Have two thoughts to relate to you on the limiters. It relates to why there is no Subwoofer package on the L1. Thoroughly enjoyed the 6L1/24B1 Project. Makes me wonder if they will give up and simply put all 24B1s in the corner.

More to come on the AR story, and my thoughts on T1/GarageBand development problems.

When my PAS (L1 Classic) arrived two years ago, a very talented engineer from the PAS Design Team called to offer assistance. To get my Virtual Modern Jazz Group Project started, I needed to connect an iPod directly to the PAS Ch.1 and Ch.2 inputs. It looked resonable, but to an engineer, that was doing a lot of things, that based on my lab experience, made me really uneasy. It bothered him too. He was also aware of Aebersold CDs. The final concept development, hardware excecution and configuration layout was a joint effort. The result was an excellent starting point. The only change was to incorporate the T1. The reason the two B1s were poorly placed is that the initial starting point was so good, that I moved on to two years of structuring and high bit rate encoding, of 1000 songs, on 3000 accompaniment files. A minor but maddening effort was editing the iTunes text files. Engineers do odd things, but we always start the titles with a Volume Number. There were other title problems. We put things in iPods with little screens. The fact that "What Are Doing for the Rest of Your Life" does not fit on the iPod screen may not seem important to you. Mine is in a dock and sits above the drawbars of my Hammond Organ. Apple assumes that if they cannot figure out a song title with two words missing, the user also cannot. The song listing scrolls the title, on and an and on. Every time I make a drawbar adgustment, it gets a little more annoying. The whole effort was really tedious, and I am glad that it is over. The room walls are clean. There is 6' of open wall in front of the corner where the 2/4 B1s are going, and I looking forward to defining the final configuration.

I would be very interested to hear your thoughts.

Wayne

Moved Reply:

Hi Wayne,

I hope that I am not treading on your "DO NOT POST" directive here.

I think you might enjoy reading about the

Special Monday Night Presentation

at our upcoming L1® Owners Conference.

I also had an opportunity to see some relatively recent developments that Microsoft is doing and in case you haven't seen it here is a link.

http://microsoft.com/esp

Moved Reply:

ST

It was not a directive. I did not want to be the new guy that was getting good information from both enginners and musicians on L1 experience in an orderly fashion, to be the one that caused you to have to deal with a bunch of really strange people. There are engineers that by day are developing exciting new industry simulation products, that go home at night to work on projects such as creating the visual, audio and physical experience of flying an F-16 fighter aircraft in combat. Also I also didn't want to be known as the idiot that started the the music appreciation nonsense. I really do not want to click on the "L1" bookmark of my PowerBook,
locate the " New vs. Old L1 Systems" Topic, scroll down, find a new post, and read the question. "Do you know what color June Christy's eyes were?"

Thanks for the link, interesting new info. Microsoft is doing some creative work. It is sort of like the creation of the QC3 I was not surprised when the PAS engineer called. After I had gotten some help on a Microsoft forum, the Microsoft engineer I had talked to called six months later, introduced himself, and said, "On the Registry confusion......".

I posted the personal stuff because the immediate broad response deserved an honest statement of purpose. The post from Alan told me to add the 8' stop, I walked over to the XK-1, pressed a few keys, the confusing problem that everyone was working on, was resolved. The only way the bottom octave would sound is a subwoofer. When Tom sent me over to the 6L1/24B1 Project I was reminded of a friend's system in the same size room, only it was two stories high. The amplifiers were two 1000 Watt Linear Liquid Cooled Engine Test Stand units. The pumped liquid piping led to outdoor fan cooled heat exchangers. The amplifiers were each 2x2x3'. No fan noise. We viewed it as a an example of how society in general was benefiting from the exploration of space.

After researching Tom's three threads, all final issues were resolved. Summarizing. Below 40 Hz, things break. Went over to zZounds. Found one. User Evaluation, 2 Stars out of 10. Broken speaker. The inclusion of a subwoofer in my future L1/XK-1 Project simply is not worth the trouble. The reason why my L1 Classic does not have a "SUBWOOFER OUT" output? See above.

Thank you for the threads. That is exactly the type of information I was seeking. I will post here next weekend.

Got to go, my miniature dachshund is glaring at me. She is the Boo in dadandboo. The answer is green.

Wayne

Moved Reply:

Wayne,

Glad I could help.

I'm not sure what the final end of the 6L1/24B1 Project was. Maybe we can get Steve to ring in on it since he was the one working with the fellow on it.

I am as annoyed as you over some of the idiosyncrasies/choices with the iPod GUI.

Tom

Moved Reply:

ST

Special Monday Night Presentation.

Thank You.

WAYNE

Moved Reply:

ST

Serious for the moment. The basic XK-! problems have been solved. Phase II starts. Here are the types of things I will be starting to work on, based on like five minutes of thinking.. Odd and irreverent yes. NASA engineers got to the moon by not taking things to seriously. The most important post so far has been by Kings Court. I have been working and will continue to work all week on the post. I hope to have it done this weekend.

Get help on 2/4 placement. Additional 2/4 headroom might make the the sound peak, when you strike the low notes, higher. The actual B3 peak is twice as high. There is no B3 player on site. I don't care about sound levels. Its 400 watts in a living room. Try putting your Bose 321 in the bathroom, put in StarWars, crank up the volume listen to the DeathStar. More to come on head room. The new 321 with the CD Import Music sitting in the corner? Does it have A hard drive/with no reset? Probably not. Is it a true format? In the room, along the wall, with the 321 at full volume, the DeathStar explosion was loud. Boo hardly moved. Facing out of the corner of bare walls the volume was a little louder. Boo was terrified. She actually flinched. I could actual FEEL the explosion. The back does have a rear port. More is going on than corner reflecion. There is optimimization happening. It is all in King Court's post. Ceramic speakers, Bose/AR, D.B. Copper Legend Effect,No Forums, Transient Response, 6L1/24B1/Test Stand Comparison, L1 Small Room Settings at 50%,Moving Closer, 16 Hz Timpani, 18'Woofers.

its a mess. There are other messes on the way. This is on effect. There are other areas that go across the forum.
Original GB/Current GB, Professional/GB Comparison, 3 Ch T1 Recording GB, 3 Ch T1 Recording Professional , Constant Instabilities, Recurring Instabilies/ Nonstandard Interfaces, Apple priorities, Problem resolution.

The real post will be reasoned and logical. This is why engineering forums are confused. Opinions on Mac/PC superiority insure a really bad day, every day.

I wrote this to define the problem. I would prefer to stay here and let some one manage the post. Every post seemes to belong in two places. I have no idea why when I mention A, A shortly shows up. Its like a giant cellphone.



I would like to post here over the weekend. I check in every day because posts are showing up every day. Let me know if you would like me to move. One last thing. just the above is like a three month effort. See Alan's 8' stop. I am intalling and configuring hardware. For example I am getting ready to order the two new B1s. Have a PackLite/ cable questiion on ordering, will post later.

Wayne

Moved Reply:

quote:

The most important post so far has been by Kings Court.

Not sure what I did, but glad I could help.

Can't wait to see the finished post.

I've quoted a Twin Cities talk show host a few times, on this forum, but can't help doing it again. "You learn more here by accident, than other places by design." - Joe Sucheray.

Moved Reply:

Kings Court

Sorry I did not post. My son and his family are visiting from Cupertino, CA. I will definitly post next weekend.

Wayne

Moved Reply:

Kings Court

I am very sorry. Somehow I got the pictures mixed up. I very much need your expertise on ARs. It is sort of complicated.

1. I am trying to achieve a FULL organ sound in a small room.

2. Subwoofers have power but might not be full. I think I need the full sound I remember in early ARs that I have heard. I have never heard the AR sound from any high end system. We traveled a lot and the one thing we had in common was audio. ARs were legendary.

3. One I remember in particular was a system, which I remember as being with ARs, was in our dorm room in 1959. It was the first component system I had seen and was comprised of a table, amplifier and two speakers. The performance in a dorm room was EXCEPTIONAL. We put on Andre Previn's "Get Me to the Church on Time". The acoustic bass was perfect.

4. Could this have been with ARs?

Again, sorry for the mix-up.

Wayne

Moved Reply:

Wayne,

Not sure?? All I sold was 3 models of the larger home stereo speakers. 2 of them were very large, about 3 feet high, and had passive woofers on them, the other was a smaller 2 way speaker with no passive woofer, but they all sounded great.

Sorry I couldn't help you out.

May want to google them, or try Ebay to get some better pics.

Thanks,

Moved Reply:

ST

The B1s arrived. They look nice.

Wayne

Moved Reply:

Wayne,

quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Dempler:
The B1s arrived. They look nice.

And how do they sound?

You will want to experiment with moving them around so you can get a sense of how the position in the room can affect the sound.

Have fun and please let us know what you hear.

Moved Reply:

Just speculatively wondering whether Waves' MaxxBass® might help with the sub 40hz issue.

Sorry for simply copying the blurb that follows, I couldn't attempt to "explain" it in my own words...

"Here’s how it works: MaxxBass separates the low bass frequencies which can’t be reproduced by the speaker. The low frequencies are analyzed to create a complex set of harmonics which can be reproduced by the speaker. These harmonics are added back to the rest of the audio, replacing the original low frequencies. Your speakers then reproduce the harmonic series, which are perceived as the original low tones."

Found here:
http://www.maxx.com/Content.aspx?id=357

I've no idea whether it "works" per se but I'm certainly curious about the supposed psychoacoustics.

Moved Reply:

Phat,

What is at the site appears to be components for integration into a variety of personal products.

You however, I believe, have completely solved the problem, in a rather unique way. The bottom octave of tone generators is indeed below 40, and is not sounding. Your concept raises those tone generators one octave, and they then will sound. Since they are only a component of the sound, the sound is virtually perfect. Now all the tone generators are sounding.

It is sort of a "Take that Hammond".

I like your approach. Please stop back.

Wayne

Moved Reply:

They [Waves] don't seem to do a great job of linking all their stuff together.

There's software plugin versions here:
http://www.waves.com/content.aspx?id=327

Hardware rack units here:
http://www.waves.com/Content.aspx?id=173

..or this beast:
http://www.waves.com/Content.aspx?id=5008

Moved Reply:

Phat,

Thank You.

Wayne

Moved Reply:

PROGRESS REPORT

XK-1/L1/4B1 Project (XLB Project)

The 2 additional B1s have been procured and delivered. Two new B1 Cables have been ordered.

The installation of the B1s will, as recommended by all, be stacked, 4 high, in the corner. 12" of clearance will be maintained behind B1s. All cables will hang free. They will not be included in any bundled cables connecting other components.

This should preclude any of the problems that occurred with the original cables (Bundled) and the replacement cables (Twisted).

XLB Project progress will be reported weekly.

Wayne

Moved Reply:

The overall purpose of this project is to investigate the feasibility of achieving Full Consule B3 Organ performance using transportable components.

XLB PROJECT

SYSTEM COMPONENTS

1.ORGAN (XK-1/L1/4B1)

2.ACCOMPANIMENT (321 GSX)

COMMENTS

1.The iPod is replaced by the 321 GSX

2.The T1 is now an INTEGRAL part of the organ. For example TWO levels of Reverb can be selected while playing the XK-1.

3.MOST IMPORTANT. The organ and accompaniment are now SEPARATED. All previous work had both sounding through the L1/B1s.
The artist now plays the organ, sounding in front of him, and hears the accompaniment to the right of him.

4.The artist now removes the Aebersold CD from the sleeve on the music jacket and inserts it into the 321 GSX.
The music is then placed on the music stand in front of him.

5.The GSX version makes possible individual accompaniment storage, lost by elimination of the iPod.

Wayne