Hello
I recently went to a local Guitar center store to try the Bose PAS system with my trumpet. I was using a Countryman Isomax II (cardoid) mic I have connected on my horn via a boom (not wireless) and we plugged it into the PAS system and activated the phantom power. Playing through the system sounded pretty good. I have to go back with some fellow musicians to re-check it, but we had one problem that the sales person didn't know how to solve. On certain notes, when attacked hard (both with open horn and mute), we got a loud distortion POPING sound. This would be unacceptable if I had to use it live. For when I go back to try it again, do you have any suggestions for settings. I am not sure how loud we had the gain, but I would like to think I could play as loud as I wanted with my horn. The SPL on my mic is pretty high and it does not do that with conventional systems. I am guessing/hoping that it is just an adjustment.

Thanks Lou

Hi Lou,

Welcome to the Message Board! That distortion might be from overdriving the input stage. Make sure that the Trim is set so that the Signal/OL indicator is green or barely blinking red, not steady red, when you play at your loudest...

Let us know if we can be of any assistance...

Also,

Please check that the bass unit is connected to Amp 3/Bass OUT not Amp 1 or Amp 2. What you're describing sounds EXACTLY like what happens when a B1 is connected to Amp one or amp two.

Steve

Thanks Guys

I will pay close attention to the trim and green light.

As for the bass unit, we didn't have it connected most of the time and still got the pop occasionally, so that was not the problem. Actually, the one time we connected the bass unit to see if it made any difference, we didn't hear any difference in the sound of the trumpet tone, except that it amplified the valve noise considerably, so I would not use the bass module with trumpet at all for that reason.

Louis - clip on mics can have that effect - where key or valve noises are amplified excessively. Some mics seem to do that more than others, depending on the nature of the mic capsule itself, as well as the style of isolation that may or may not be used to help 'disconnect' the mic element from the armature attaching it to the horn.

I personally have 3 clip ons that work well - one is a hand built model of 15 years, the others are Shure SM98's (correct model number?) for saxes, and AKG's C-419 for trumpets and trombones. All three are used WITH a single sub module - with no ill effects from key strikes.

Just my $0.02 worth.
Ken Bausano

Hi Ken (jazzhorn1),

I tried a C419 on a trumpet last night. (I wasn't the player). We did well with it except when the trumpet player (is there a better noun for that person), used her mute (spun aluminum thing stuffed into the bell).

Anyway, there was such a difference in the volume that it was tough to manage her level.

I suppose it would have worked better if she had control of her own volume with a Remote, but I had the Remote near me, on the other side of the stage.

I'm not very familiar with wind instruments, but is seems that the trumpet has a very wide dynamic range. Especially since she used the mute and the bottom of a toilet plunger.

I should mention that she is an amazing player.

This was the first time that this particular collection of players had worked together with the Bose® Personalized Amplification System™.

On reflection, if we had all been more familiar the PAS, we might have done a better job of actually listening to one another and self-managing the dynamics.

Anyway - back to the question:

Do you have suggestions for using the C419 with a trumpet, with the Bose System?

Thanks Ken.

edits: (revised to say Bose® Personalized Amplification System™ )

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

Hello Louis,

I want to make sure we help you work this out. What happened certainly sounds like the input was being overloaded, so the first thing to try as Chuck says is turn down the trim until the loudest blast from the horn just barely turns the LED on the channel you're using on the PS1 power stand red.

Get a friend to observe the LED on the PS1 while you blast.

It's important to us that you get a clean signal so that you can move on to a proper evaluation. Don't hesitate to call our technical folks at 877/335-2673, even from GC if that's convenient.

I've heard a lot of trumpet players through the system, and they have been uniformly impressed with the fact that for once you can project your sound across the stage and throughout the audience with little change in tone or level. Most horn players tell me they get the short end of a conventional system. Using a Cylindrical Radiator(tm) speaker made one player I've worked with say he felt for the first time like he was being treated like a real player.

Please stay in touch with us so that we can help resolve any technical issues.

Also, do you mind telling us all here at the forum a little bit more about your live-music life?

Hi Ken,

I noticed a "pop" when I power down the system (PS1/L1/B1). This seems to happen irrespective of the settings on the remote or if anything else is plugged into the inputs.

It is loud enough to be audible, (sort of like pulling an input on an open channel on a mixer).

Does this seem normal to you?

st i had returned a unit that did the same thing. even when all trims were down. it sounded like a firecracker. quite loud. if in a dinner club, i believe it would scafe folks if i would have had to powe down. it happened on the unit i was trialing to keep as a second system. i decided not to get a second system at the time, but advised bose when i returned it, that they might want to check that. i noticed it must have just been something with one of the amps , as the pop came specifically from the top L1 speaker. can you isolate where your pop comes from?
all amps make a small noise when powered down, but if its loud , like a firecracker, or a cap gun. i dont think its normal.
mine was about as loud as if you had the bose really cranked or a conventional amp, and maybe forgot and powered down an external mixer first. that will usually give one a big pop also.
but with everthiung down on the ps1, if it sounds as a cord being pulled, its probably not normal. but bose will know best.

Ken

You asked about my live music life. Well, I have played jazz and funk in many settings in the past. TV, Live outside, stage, clubs, and even dances years ago. Most all of them were always disappointing sound wise. Either I couldn't hear myself, or couldn't hear what other musicians were doing. It has always been frustrating to work so hard on a nice trumpet tone only to barely hear it over the other amplified instruments, or hear it thru speakers that make it sound "tinny" or distorted. I am hoping the Bose system will help change that. I am just now in rehearsals for the very first concert of my own musical compositions. It took a long time to find the right musicians and get it going. The music is not easy and wouldn't sound right played by most local musicians so I had to go out of state. Anyway, you can hear samples of the kind of music I will be playing at my site, where I posted small clips of my first CD, Spiritual Awakenings. I have a new CD about 98% done. The concert wil include music from both CD's. In spite of the fact that there are a fair number of electronics involved in my music, I want it to sound as acousitic as possible. I hate when I go to concerts and I have to put napkins or toilet paper in my ears to listen to the music because it is so loud. My plan, is to audition the Bose system and if it seems to work, integrate it into my current system using my EV S1202 speakers for the keyboard, allow the acoustic bass and guitar to use their own amps, don't mic the drums or percussion and use a Bose PAS for the trumpet and sax. As time goes on, I will expand it and invest in sets for all the other musicians. But things like this take time and money. I am only in the trying stage with the Bose PAS system. Funny, before I heard of this system, and when I was in the initial planning stages of my concert, my strong intentions were to try to set up a system BEHIND the band anyway.

My site is www.enchantedvibrations.com if you are interested in checking out the music ans other info.

Not sure when I will be able to get back to try the PAS again. Hopefully within a month. Want to coodinate it with some other members of the band. Probably won't buy it for this first concert but if it seems like it is going to work out, there will be many more to follow and I will definitly start buying them for that.

I take my time when I make decisions like this and like to get lots of feedback. Your speaker system seems so logical and such a great idea though.


Thanks Lou Guarino

Hello Louis,

I checked out the samples. Beautiful trumpet playing. Reminds me a little bit of some of the spacier stuff Wayner Shorter and Joe Zawinul did with Weather Report -- like the opening track on Mysterious Traveler. Or I Sing the Body Electric.

When you are ready to try the system, would you let me know? I'd like to personally insure you get the right technical support. It has been our experience that getting a proper fitting resutls in a very high level of satisfaction.

Let me know, okay?

Ken

Do you mean that the next time I plan to go to my local Guitar Center in Orange, CT., to let you know I will be going there?

If so, it may be tough, unless I can call you by phone ahead of time. I have to work around everyone else's (musicians) schedule when they think they can come to help me listen. Sometimes that is last minute decisions. The next time I go, I may try to bring my keyboard player along with me. He is a senior member of Krell manufacturing and has a good ear, as well as being a keyboard player. Let me know how to contact you.

Thanks for the compliments and the help.

Lou

Hi again Louis, and ST

I was very pleased to review your online clips. In California (where I live) this style of playing is not unusual at all, and schools like The Thornton School of Music at USC, and Cal Arts produce many players with this genre well in their background. I found your comment of "having to go out of state" to find a trumpeter able to perform your music a bit surprising - but then we do what we have to do to find the right pieces for our music. And I suppose going across a state line from Conneticut is really like going from one county to the next here on the left coast!

ST: The C419 is really not designed for muted trumpet - the armature is simply not long enough. And often the gripper used to attaching it to the bell impedes the mute's needed connection with the horn. Miles Davis used a microphone made by a Swiss company (as I recall) that was attached to the valve cluster, and extended far beyong the bell, then made a u-turn back towards the center of the bell opening. It was designed specifically with Harmon or "bubble'style mutes in mind.

My other thought was, Louis, that unless movement on stage was a significant part of your show for the trumpeter, a stand mic (many have been used with significant success and are spoken of throught this forum) is becoming my method of choice with the PAS. And perhaps especially since your music really uses colorations and tonal effects - the ability to "work" a mic in and out (and hear exactly and immediately the effects such movement is having on the amplification of that sound) has been a wonderful additional benefit to me as a trumpeter. Maybe in this case - a typical mic in stand might get you closer to the sound concepts you're looking for?

Just a thought - YMMV (your milage may vary)

Ken Bausano

Ken (Jazzhorn1)

Thanks for the reply. I think you misunderstood what I said above in my post because I am the trumpet player. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. I had to go out of state to get a guitar and bass player. The guitar player, Michael Gregory, used to play with Oliver Lake, Wadada Leo Smith, and Jack DeJonette and the Bass player used to play with Wadada Leo Smith. My reason for saying the local musicians would not sound right doing my style of music is that most of the musicians in Connecticut play either strait ahead mainstream jazz or funky R & B. Both of these guys used to live in Connecticut years ago and I knew they would be right for the music. And yes, you are right. These guys are an hours ride from my house.

As for my mic. I use a Countryman Isomax II that is set up on a boom so that I can play my harmon mute with it. This is the first mic that Miles Davis used attached to his horn when he came out of his long retreat from music. I spoke to his engineer at the time, Ron Loreman of Hartke Industries and he is the one that told me about it. They too, had a lot of trouble rigging it up so as NOT to hear the valve noise. Not sure what their solution was. Later, Miles changed over to the LCM 77 from SD Systems. You can find that here:
http://www.sdsystems.com/
I never did like the concept of a clip on mic that clips ON the bell. Can't use a mute that way and I can't help but feel it interferes with the resonance of the bell. My setup fastens with sponge rubber isolaters and velcro between the bottom of the tuning slide and 3rd valve slide. The boom goes out in front of the bell leaving room for a mute. The mic itself, which is about the size of a stick of dentyne gum, is isolated in a small ring by elastic bands. I made it myself, but I admit it is really hard to isolate the valve noise no matter how you design a mic if is is attatched to the horn in any way. I like the idea of being free so that is why I like an attached mic. The mic I really would like to try that has me intrigued is the Applied Microphone Technology mic. I hear a lot of nice things about it. You can find it here:

http://www.appliedmic.com/details.asp?ID=37

By the way, how do you like playing thru the PAS system? Do you do loud open trumpet solos thru it? Can you hear good over the drums and other instruments? I'd love to hear another trumpeters opinion.

Thanks again


Lou

Thanks Ken (jazzhorn1).

quote:

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ST: The C419 is really not designed for muted trumpet - the armature is simply not long enough. And often the gripper used to attaching it to the bell impedes the mute's needed connection with the horn. Miles Davis used a microphone made by a Swiss company (as I recall) that was attached to the valve cluster, and extended far beyong the bell, then made a u-turn back towards the center of the bell opening. It was designed specifically with Harmon or "bubble'style mutes in mind.

---

Working with horns is new for me, and I'm just digging around in my barrel of mics trying to find the right bits and pieces.

Our trumpeter was pretty happy with a Beyerdynamics M88, but I thought it would give her more liberty if we tried the clip-on mic. I doubt that we are up for custom made rigs just yet, so I guess we will go back to the stationery mic on a stand.

I expect that we would run into phasing problems if we used the C419 on the bell, and another microphone on the stand at the same time.

I really appreciate your help Ken.

wfs,

Thanks for your reply. I'll probably give the boys-at-Bose a call on the support line.

Louis & ST:

Louis - Wadada is pretty well known on the left coast - and is still a current faculty member at Cal Arts, I believe. One of my trumpet partners here in Bakersfield had Wadada as a teacher mentor - and loved him. And you are right about the mic Miles was using later - the SD systems setup (I had forgotten the name). Hear anything about them lately? I agree that the most buzz I have heard in recent years was about the AMT - and especially the Roam wireless setups, using the Samson transmitter 'bug.' A couple of springs ago at NAMM, I spent some in-depth time at the AMT booth - following up on the buzz from Lovano & Brecker using these wireless setups on their saxes. I decided to wait though, because the ability to use that system on trumpet (with higher spl levels) wouldn't allow for the same microphone element, and power comsumption wasn't compatible. Looks like, according to the link you sent, that perhaps that issue has been remedied. I'll have to call AMT directly and see what the current state of technology is there.

Mind you, I use wireless in a show band - one with full costuming, choreography, dancers, etc. So though sound is critical - even more necessary is the ability to move around stage and an audience at will. Thus the clip-ons and wireless gear. With my experiences using the PAS since November however, I find that I am preferring the sound flexibility of a stand mic, and I use mutes often. And yes - I never leave home without my PAS (multiple units, actually ) Loud portions of solos are easy - especially with a stand mic. I just move off the mic, like a singer hitting high notes, and allow the acoustic sound to take over. It is interesting to note that the decay of my trumpet is at the same rate as a traditional cone speaker - so using the PAS allows my sound to carry further without overpowering anyone close to the stage. I think it works wonderfully with horns (your milage may vary, of course!)

ST: I assume you might be able to create some interesting effects by double-micing, but to be honest I had never heard of that until your post. Perhaps someone on the list could enlighten us both on this?

And again to reiterate - if "liberty" for your trumpeter means freedom of movement around a stage without affecting sound amplification, a clip on might be the thing. But if it might mean ability to contour and shape the sounds she plays - then 'working' a stand mic is the best option, IMO.

Ken

Ken,

quote:

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ST: I assume you might be able to create some interesting effects by double-micing, but to be honest I had never heard of that until your post. Perhaps someone on the list could enlighten us both on this?

And again to reiterate - if "liberty" for your trumpeter means freedom of movement around a stage without affecting sound amplification, a clip on might be the thing. But if it might mean ability to contour and shape the sounds she plays - then 'working' a stand mic is the best option, IMO.

---

"Liberty" (as I meant it) was to physical freedom to move around and without having to the aware of the mic on the stand.

There are some consequences to using two microphones in close proximity. I think it has to do with problems with phase related distortion. Apparently you have to be very careful about the distance between the microphones.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

This is really an informative and interesting discussion. I am so glad I posted my question here. It is nice to converse with other trumpet players who have used the PAS. When I go to the Guitar Center to try out the system again, I will definitly let Ken (from Bose) know, and I will also bring my Audio Technica 4050CM5 stand alone mic to see how the PAS system works with a stand mic, as well as my Countryman boom setup. That was a very good suggestion.

To reiterate, when I used the PAS system my one and only first time, I 1) heard no difference in sound with or without the subwoofer (with my trumpet), and 2) Only noticed the loud valve thumping with the sub woofer connected. Without the subwoofer, the valve noise was surprisingly quiet and barely audible.

I will post back after I try the PAS system again to let you all know how it went.

By the way, Ken (Jazzhorn1), I was fortunate to be in an organization called the CMIF (Creative Musicians Improvisors Forum) some years back, which Wadada started here in Connecticut. We did many concerts with some cool musicians, many of them being members of the AACM. Wadada is a very close friend of mine and used to live right up the street. I learned quiet a bit from being in his company. His 2 daughters still live in Connecticut, one of them about 2 football fields away from my house. He always stops by when he comes in to see his grandchildren, and if he remembers, always lets me know when he has concerts on the east coast so I can come to listen.

Weird, most of those CMIF musicians have moved out of Connecticut after the organization disbanded, which is why I had to try to hunt them down for my concert (smile).

Like you said, you do what you have to do for our music.

Later ..........Lou Guarino

I stand educated!

quote:

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There are some consequences to using two microphones in close proximity. I think it has to do with problems with phase related distortion. Apparently you have to be very careful about the distance between the microphones.

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Ken