quote:

Originally posted by ST:
Dealing with this well becomes part and parcel of *doing your best*.

Yes.

quote:

(“your best” and “what you have” will change a thousand times)

quote:

Originally posted by BabyBlueEyes:
...In this case, they do their very best musically, but "make do" with whatever they can afford...

...or are faced with, in the case of a hybrid setting.

quote:

I...did the best I could where I personally was concerned, and used the tool at hand to do the work. I adapted.

I don't mean we should blow hard if everyone else plays quietly. Your best work is not your best if you don't cooperate. I don't like that someone should have to really stifle themselves to run with the crowd, though. Too philosophical again. Sorry. I guess it boils down to if the L1 is that much better than what anybody else is using in a hybrid situation, and that same L1 is going to hinder the overall presentation by standing out like a sore thumb, then it should not be used. If that is too much for us, and we simply can't adapt - and that's perfectly cool - then we need to play only solo, or make it our priority to seek out other L1 users, which leads us back to a workshop, yes?

quote:

Originally posted by ST:
If you are an accompanist with an L1® in hybrid band, you may not have the same sense of the overall mix as you get when playing with an all L1® band.

I completely buy that. So the accompanist then has to decide if s/he wants to try to make it work, w/ or w/o the L1, or move on.

Reading these pages and trying to connect to the "Workshop" thread.

It would seem a good workshop might include how to integrate the L1 into a conventional setup.

I play on occasion with others (just 1 or 2) playing through house systems. I have learned that when just playing rhythm guitar I must lay back in the mix, or if singing backup I will stay off the mic.

In the situations I have been in, I have been forced, by space constraints, to work very close to the L1. Having a better understanding of what we are actually producing at 10, 20, or 30 feet from the L1 when actually standing 3 or 4 feet from it, and balancing that with the "bands" sound, might help us to make a better impression on the non L1 friends we are playing with.

I have learned when playing with others, at their gig, if I can't fit perfectly in the mix, it is better to not be heard or just slightly audible, than to stand out like a sore thumb, no matter how good I think I make them sound.

I would like to have that same respect when they play with me.

Owning or playing through an L1 does not guarantee great sound or outstanding musicianship. I listen to live music in a couple of venues where different performers use L1s. No two ever fill the venue with the same level, fullness, or clarity. In my experience, those with a long history of performing live, and those who start on the L1, are better at quickly taking advantage of the best of the L1.

Of course, there are some genre that will never sound like music to my ear, regardless of the delivery system.

Back to the subject.

I am kind of a "show me" type of guy. I get much more from a good example than a boring lecture. So we have to know when to lead and know when to follow. Shine when it's our turn and make space for others to do the same.

I have a friend who plays in a couple of different cover bands. Members are all in their 50's. Recently he played at a popular college hang out and was concerned the band would not be recieved well, because of 5 grey or balding players. I tell him not to worry, after listening to young musicians his band of very accomplished guys will be appreaciated. Anyway, they arrive at the gig, set up, and are pleased to find the house soundman is a known and respected fellow musician. When it comes time to play they ask that the music in the adjoining room be turned off, at which time they are informed that house rules state the music stays on. If they don't want to hear it, they must play louder. So they crank it up. End up having a great night, standing ovation and an encore.

What would an L1 band do?

How do we deal with that mentality at the management level, especially when their business is a financial success?

So Bose is 15 years into this thing called the L1. Early adoptees have only been around about 5 years. This is a long term endeavor. We must not get impatient.

There are more minds to change than the musicians. The venue managers, bar-keeps and the patrons have a say, and like the sales at Bose get shipped one or two at a time, so must we change the minds of those we encounter.

Are we there yet?

Not yet.

O..

Hi Nathan,

quote:

Originally posted by BabyBlueEyes:

quote:

Originally posted by ST:
If you are an accompanist with an L1® in hybrid band, you may not have the same sense of the overall mix as you get when playing with an all L1® band.

I completely buy that. So the accompanist then has to decide if s/he wants to try to make it work, w/ or w/o the L1, or move on.

My Decision
I will take playing *with* my L1® over *without* my L1® because

Even with the challenges of working in a hybrid situation - it is still better than not having my L1®.

Why?

• With or without my L1®, I probably can't hear the others in the ensemble particularly well. I probably don't have a good sense of how the others sound in the house.
  
  Using my L1® doesn't change that.
  
  
• If I have my L1®, I can probably hear myself better than through conventional monitors. That has certainly been my experience so far. This also means that the others on the stage with me can probably hear me better too. Most of the time I get positive responses to that. On very rare occasions, I have been told that I am too loud (on stage). This has always been fixable by moving things around a little.
  
  It has only happened when someone stepped up on stage and set up between me and my L1®.
  
  
• The main issue I raised about playing in a hybrid situation was that I probably don't know about the mix out front. This just means that it is harder to be a good collaborator.
  
  This doesn't get any better if I do without my L1®. In fact, I now have less information than before because without my L1® I don't know how *I* sound out front.
  

Summary
Challenge with all non-L1® band
I can't hear what is happening out front.
I have to guess and adapt.

Challenge with Hybrid:
I can't hear what is happening out front
I have to guess and adapt.

Doing without my L1® doesn't improve the situation. I have less information (I can't hear myself as well) so it limits my ability to adapt.

Now if there is a sound engineer in the mix, then I can still run at monitor-only levels and provide a line out to the console.

Ideal for me is an all L1® Band
Far less guessing.

Hi Oldghm,

quote:

Originally posted by Oldghm:
Reading these pages and trying to connect to the "Workshop" thread.

It would seem a good workshop might include how to integrate the L1 into a conventional setup.

I'll add it to the list.

quote:

I play on occasion with others (just 1 or 2) playing through house systems. I have learned that when just playing rhythm guitar I must lay back in the mix, or if singing backup I will stay off the mic.

Me too.
I've heard you sing, and you have a great voice and a lot more control than I have. One of my goals this year was to get better at controlling my volume while staying on the microphone. That is keep the tone by staying on the microphone. Get more control at lower volume. Not easy.

quote:

In the situations I have been in, I have been forced, by space constraints, to work very close to the L1.

I rehearse at different and sub-optimal distances from the L1® just to be prepared for how that will sound, and for the adjustments I may need to make to cope.

quote:

Having a better understanding of what we are actually producing at 10, 20, or 30 feet from the L1 when actually standing 3 or 4 feet from it, and balancing that with the "bands" sound, might help us to make a better impression on the non L1 friends we are playing with.

Now *that* would make for a great workshop demonstration. I'll never forget the vivid impression you made as you walked across the stage in Ashland singing into those several microphones.

Have an ensemble setting up an L1® in amongst non-L1® equipment with people taking the lead and support roles - AND - having L1® players walking the room would be a great way to learn about this from the audience perspective.

We could debrief and discuss what we all heard from the floor and the stage.

quote:

I have learned when playing with others, at their gig, if I can't fit perfectly in the mix, it is better to not be heard or just slightly audible, than to stand out like a sore thumb, no matter how good I think I make them sound.

Same here. But I was making the same choices before I got my L1®.

quote:

I would like to have that same respect when they play with me.

Of course. And this year, as I have had more people accompany me rather than the other way around, I have been faced with the new dilemma: Asking others not to step on the vocals or over-play.

quote:

Owning or playing through an L1 does not guarantee great sound or outstanding musicianship. I listen to live music in a couple of venues where different performers use L1s. No two ever fill the venue with the same level, fullness, or clarity. In my experience, those with a long history of performing live, and those who start on the L1, are better at quickly taking advantage of the best of the L1.

Just like having a great instrument doesn't guarantee you'll be a great player. But having a great instrument can lower the obstacles to letting the player within, emerge and be heard.

quote:

Of course, there are some genre that will never sound like music to my ear, regardless of the delivery system.

Back to the subject.

I am kind of a "show me" type of guy. I get much more from a good example than a boring lecture. So we have to know when to lead and know when to follow. Shine when it's our turn and make space for others to do the same.

This is explains to me why your presentation in Ashland was so effective.

I'll visit the other excellent points a little later.

quote:

I have learned when playing with others, at their gig, if I can't fit perfectly in the mix, it is better to not be heard or just slightly audible, than to stand out like a sore thumb, no matter how good I think I make them sound

When I have people tell me "they can't hear themselves" I usally tell them that if you hear yourself then you are probably to loud. It has nothing to do with age or how long you have been playing. Some musicians have never learned to "blend in". We also have a genearation or two who expect the sound man to make it all come together.

quote:

What would an L1 band do?

Just like your friends did "crank it up". If the L1 is to be the PA of choice then it will have to stand up in those kind of venues. I have had no problem at loud levels. Not what I want to do, but I have done it. I have said this before. Any room that is to big for my L1's is to big for my old PA. I would be out of luck anyway I go. At least with the L1's I sound good on stage.

quote:

Owning or playing through an L1 does not guarantee great sound or outstanding musicianship.

You are right about this. I run into musicians who say they heard someone on a Bose and it didn't sound good at all. I had a friend play on mine and said he couldn't hear the low end. We all just looked at him stunned because the low end is biggest selling point in my circle of musicians. I think he was use to mud and not tight and clear. Lets face some people no nothing about getting good sound. You good give them state of the art everything and they will still sound average to bad. If someone buy's a L1 and thinks this will instantly improve there talent they will have problems. How many of you have had someone use your system and then comment on how they could hear everything they did and how they really sounded, but they were not to happy about it. They are not use to really hearing themselves and it is scary. Some like that and some want no part of it. It's like hearing your voice recorded the first or 100,000 times. I still go is that me?

We all cringe at the thought of having to use the box on a stick PA, but we do know how to get the best sound out of one even if the best sound is still bad. That said if you are playing the right songs to the right crowd I am not sure if they care that the PA is not that good. Some do appreciate better sound but I am not sure about the majority.

We all love the L1 because we sound better. When we sound better we play better. When we sound good we are happy. When we are happy it flows out to the our fanatic fans. I would like to know why did you (I mean every one in cyber world here) abandon the old way for the light at the top of the mountain. I know the answer. We wanted better. That is the trick in selling this to others. If they are happy with what they have then it is tough to make them change. Why should I spend 2k to 3k for a new PA when I am happy with what I have.

Does anybody want to go get lunch? Roy