yO! Andrew what would happen if you used say
a small 15" powererd sub with a crossover in it or separate. Then dailed in say85db and below! BOOM BOOM SHAKE THE ROOM!!!!
Big AL...

Interesting idea...but a quick look around revealed subwoofers that aren't significantly smaller than my existing 2x12 cabinet (though they are smaller, they're not a lot smaller). Unless I can see some real benefit to altering my rig (which works really well), there's no point.

Andrew, two 12 cab cool! But a 15 or 18" inch powered sub with a crossover? shoot! lets kick some bass butt. You take your bass pod or whatever split the signal-one to the pas one to the sub. AND Bam BABY!You get the dispersion the highsand the low end at any volume. And to me the bottom end coming out of nice sub is much better than most bass amps that to my ears sound twaakie anyway. See for me I'm into "the sound that's in my head" and I hear bass up or in there. (could be cause it's hollow HEY YOU CAN EVEN SHARE YOUR SUB WITH THE DRUMMER FOR THAT BASS DRUM-BASS THING! And you know that rocks! My point is I'll take a fridge to the gig for the sound. for me right now the pas sounds better than the fridge. AL....

Hey BassGuys...
I'm the guy who started this thread. I wrote it before I bought two PAS/B1 setups mainly to replace our PA. When I first got them I started experimenting using one for bass use. I tried EVERY hookup combo there is using the PAS, B1s, SVT4PRO, PR410HLFs and PR15H.
Now, with all due respect to the engineers at Bose, it just doesn't make it. To borrow an old HotRod addage, "there is no substitute for cubic inches". I know that the "numbers" are there but consider the difference between headphones and high quality stereo peakers or a very good recording of a live performance and being at that performance. So much of what we bass players thrive is felt as well as heard. And don't try to tell me that you can't feel it even as a listener in a large venue.
That being said, I still use my Ampeg SVT4PRO driving two PR410HLFs. However, now I run a cable from the head's line out to the PAS/B1. After setting the level of my amp I bring up the line out until I just hear it comming from the L1, then back it off a little. What's added is a presence and clarity that wasn't there before...awsome!
Bottom line...I'll continue to pack all that bass gear but not all that PA gear. Our vocals and band has never sounded better.

That's exactly what i'm doing (albeit with a different bass amp and cabinet) and it does indeed sound really amazing.

Did you try your SVT preamp (only) into an L1 with TWO B1s? That's a configuration I'm thinking of for situations where I REALLY don't want to carry my cabinet.

That setup is exactly what I've also found works best. Take the LINE OUT from the SVT preamp and go into any available channel in the PAS. Then dial in the Bose to taste. Just be careful not to overdrive it, as you can incur unintended severe compression/limiting. For situations quieter than a full-blown rock band, the L1 + 2 B1 setup is great, and very "hi fi".

the positioning of the B1 modules is of critical importance. mid and high frequencies tend to travel in a straight line hence wisdom of the cylindrical speakers. lower frequencies are much more maliable. if inches matter so much why not get an 18" reverse folded horn that doesn't come to full volume until 30 feet in front of the cabinet? try aiming yer B1 modules and placing them in close proximity to a hard surface wall. the B1s handle 250 watts each, they will effectively then be using the entire room as an amplification / sound dispersal device, just the same way the open-backed bose wave radio-cd's do -- they just don't work if ya don't place 'em next to a wall. love and peace.

We used our systems in a college theatre last night, with no wall behind the L1's or the B1's, and they still sounded great. I had an unrelated physical problem with my PAS, which I've reported elsewhere, but our workaround didn't diminish the sound at all. I'm glad that using 4 PAS's on stage makes setup a bit more flexible than most situations we find ourselves in on road gigs.

BUZZSAW,
Your mention of the 18" folden horn coming to full volume at 30'jogged a memory of my first gig back in 1974. I had a cerwin vega/peavey 18" folded horn cabinet and an SVT head. On the first song[the real me by the Who] I couldn't hear my self loud enough so I kept turning up, about halfway through the song I looked up and saw everybody crowded by the exit door at front of the club and to my left the bartenders where catching bottles falling off the shelfs. The good old days. So I didn't give up the 18 just added an 8x10 cab so I could hear myself on stage. Things are slightly better for everybody now with the PAS.

quote:

Originally posted by Hilmar-at-Bose:
Douglas

quote:

A post-crossover line-out for an 18" powered cabinet springs to mind. (Biamped Bose?)

You can use the "Bass Line Out" on the PS1 for that purpose. It's post-crossover and if you are not using any of the B1 bass modules it gives a flat 40Hz to 180 Hz output.

Hilmar

What are the implications of this for 5-string bassists that need response in the 30KHz-40KHz range? Is the roll-off below 40KHz abrupt and what is the depression (dB/SPL) at 30KHz?

Thanks & regards,
Lloyd Hansen

quote:

Originally posted by YerBASSicCyberDude:
...
What are the implications of this for 5-string bassists that need response in the 30KHz-40KHz range? Is the roll-off below 40KHz abrupt and what is the depression (dB/SPL) at 30KHz?...

A minor point ... you really don't mean "K"Hz (that's thousand); you mean 30-40Hz.

re: roll-off: To my ears, it's not a sharp "cutoff". We play a 5-string bass, an 88-key Roland keyboard, and a "Porchboard Bass" through two systems (w/ 2 B1's each) and only occassionally do we need to tweak the bass EQ up a little bit to keep the lowest range in balance; it's mostly a matter of differing room responses (because sometimes we have to tweak it down, too!).

Lloyd

before I answer the technical stuff, please let me try to clarify a few things. Many people think that a 5-string bass need a speaker with a frequency response down to 30 Hz or you wouldn’t be able to hear the low B “properly”.

That’s really not the case. The sound of the bass does not only consist of the actual “fundamental” tone (i.e. 31 Hz in case of the low B) but also many multiples of that frequency (i.e. 62 Hz, 93 Hz, 123 Hz, etc.), which are called the “harmonics”. In fact the amount of energy in the fundamental is relatively small as compared to the rest, so you really don’t loose much by keeping the response low at 30 Hz.

Furthermore, very low frequencies (say below 50 Hz) are not perceptually associated with “bass” or “thump” or “punch” but are much more like an indistinct rumble. We actually have analyzed the frequency content of a lot of recorded music and there is little energy below 50Hz and virtually none below 40Hz. The only type of content that uses very low frequencies regularly is movies. But there it’s not used for musical purposes but as a sound effect, e.g. explosions, starting rockets, a T-Rex stomping along, etc.

In live sound situations very low frequencies tend to make the sound very muddy unless it’s carefully designed fixed installation (as it is in theaters), so most live sound amplification gear will not go particularly low. For example an Ampeg SVT cabinet is only specified down to 55 Hz and most people would claim it does a very adequate job on a 5 string bass.

In fact our B1 goes actually deeper than most other bass cabinets. But it does stop at 40 Hz and does so very abruptly. You will not be able to get any usable energy out of the B1 or the Bass Line Out at 30 Hz. The reason for this is mainly protection. Most bass box designs cannot handle anywhere near the fully rated power below their port tuning frequency and there is no point in trying. They can’t radiate any appreciable amount of sound energy and it’s very possible to damage the driver.

Anyway, if you have a chance, why don’t you just plug in your bass into a double B1 system and let your ears decide whether there is anything missing or not?

Hope that helps

Hilmar

I can report from personal experience that the PAS, especially the extended-bass versions, sounds really great even with bass-heavy material. I play a 5 string, and we use our systems with drum machines as well.

Thanks Dan, Hilmar, Andrew for your helpful responses. Sorry about the KHz rather than Hz misspeaks- must have been the tKeela.

I have to get a few of these PAS and B1s.

Regards,
Lloyd Hansen

Has anyone studied/tried these (http://www.genelecusa.com/products/subwf.php) sub-woofers for kick-drums and/or bass? Although they weigh (way) more than the accoustic wave cannon, they are much smaller and claim a pretty flat frequency-response 19-80Hz +-3db with high SPL although the reference to "short-term" RMS power might be a little disturbing for the demands of musical-performances.

What other sub-woofers have folks used satisfactorily for kick-drum and bass?

Thanks & regards,
Lloyd Hansen

19~80Hz ... whoa, that's low. There's not a lot of useful info down at that low a frequency in my opinion. It would be good for an explosion effect for sure.

Steve

As far as I know Genelec designs only studio monitors. I believe these subs are designed for a relatively small studio listenging room and really wouldn't do too well in a live sound environment.

Hope that helps

Hilmar

Thanks Dan, Hilmar, Andrew, Steve.

Your responses are very instructive and appreciated. I think I'm in love with PAS and I have to get some of them.

Something to think about might be what the instrument is producing and what relative energy is it producing in its fundamentals vs its overtones. It seems to me that one naturally wants a sound-reinforcement system that reproduces whatever the instrument delivers albeit at higher SPL. The musician can then concentrate on plying his art using his instrument and the reinforcement gear delivers the SPL.

What I think I have learned from the many posts in these forums is that no arguments of convenience or appologies for the PAS in this area are required. One simply needs to know that PAS faithfully reinforces the 40Hz-20KHz portion of what is given to it and delivers it in a highly unique and desireable way (wide sound-cylinder with low SPL fall-off with distance) and it is packaged for highly-desireable ease-of-transport. If one wants reinformcement below 40Hz, it must be obtained with some other reinformcement tools. I.e. one needs to be cognisant of the limitations of PAS as well as its benefits.

Thanks & regards,
Lloyd Hansen

Lloyd,

Well said! I think that last paragraph is the challenge for any and all loudspeakers and that many companies are trying to do just that (and have been for many years).

I feel that today with inexpensive, high quality power amps and good manufacturing practices that most mid-to-high range speakers can achieve your goal, the trick then becomes coverage. The L1 shines here in my opinion.

Filling a room with even sound is hard to do and I think you'll find that is the next frontier for speaker designers. (you read it here first ) The greatest improvments have been made in the huge venues and I think that you'll see more attention being spent on the small venues where probably 90% or more of music is made.

Interestingly, when you get to the low frequencies in small rooms, you get a lot more room peaks and nulls, so adding a 40Hz or lower wave might not be a good thing if your end goal is clear sound.

Thanks for your observations/comments,
Steve

I played in a large outdoor area with a similar setup. My rig: SVT4PRO + 1X15 + 2X10/horn. I took the line out and went to a BOSE input. I loved the extra clarity and sound dispersion, but ran into the compression issue. I tried to adjust the gain staging carefully, but that's hard to do in the middle of a performance. Using the LINE OUT on the Ampeg, I could easily adjust the level going to the BOSE. My question - Might I be better off by sending the BiAmp HIPASS output, instead of the full range signal? I suspect that the compression is triggering because of the low frequency content.