Question:
How long have you been gigging?

As I read through these messages I am struck by sophistication and maturity the of musicians here. So I thought I would ask (because it might be correlated to some as-yet-to-be-quantified set of qualifications it takes to appreciate and buy a Personalized Amplification System ™) ....

How long have you been gigging?

How long you've been playing is a question for a different poll.
Edit - Let's say that gigging is: performing, playing out, playing in front of people, paid or not (so we can we can include all of our friends who entertain in non-paid situations).

Thanks

Edit - Suggestion: After you vote and see the results, take a moment and post a message about your thoughts on the distribution.

Choices:
20 years or more
10-19 years
5-9 years
1-4 years
less than a year

 

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

I'm loosely defining "gigging" as "playing in front of people instead of in the garage/basement/bedroom."

My band is a bunch of amateurs who could probably make a little money at it if we wanted to make the commitment, but that's not why we do it. So we've never played a PAYING gig.

So as of this morning, we are at 95% 10+ years. It would be 70% 20+ if I had put myself in the 20+ category which was iffy because I had a 15 year hiatus between my two musical "careers", so I only counted the 16 most recent years since the return to music.

Why do you suppose it is so heavily skewed towards the veterans?

I'm thinking that among other things, as we have more experience playing we tend to be less tolerant of things like:

• time to setup/teardown
• logistics of moving a lot of gear around
• having to arrive and setup hours before playing so you can do that before the audience is around
  (especially sound check)
• not being able to hear oneself
• not being able to hear the rest of the band
• being separated from the audience by the monitors
• trusting the sound to a "sound man" or burdening one member of the band with running the board while simultaneously trying to play
• being told that the band is too loud
• watching the audience migrate away from the stage to avoid the volume
• being unable to hear after performing
• risking one's hearing

So maybe the veterans are adopting the Bose system because we are tired of the above.

Can you think of other reasons why we adopting this new way faster than our younger selves?
If anything this is counter intuitive if only because older generationis often considered to have a greater aversion to change.

What do you think?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

My wife and I decided a few years back that as we are getting older, we will either make gigs easier to do, or will stop doing them. We went with the PAS to make my solo whistle and windsynth gigs a LOT easier to do - not to mention the gigs I do as a storyteller / magician. Getting this much sound out of this easy-to-move rig is heaven indeed!

ST,

I don't own a PAS but I won't let that stop me from giving an opinion. In an effort to make valid what I say I will share a little about my musical history.

Dec. 2004 will mark 50 years since the first time I stepped on a stage to perform solo. In those 50 years I have sang in churches, schools, livingrooms, theaters, bars, at outdoor festivals, on sidewalks, on farmwagons, in old store buildings, at fancy hotels and in dumps. I've sang for quarters and I've sang for dollars, and I toured Equador twice in an cultural exchange program for nothing but the experience, and that was more rewarding than any paying gig I ever had. Over the years I have performed with groups in various settings but never enough to feel I was a member of a group.

I began work professionally in the early seventies and continued through the early ninties mostly full time, then mostly quit for a few years while I ran another business, starting, back to performing about 3 years ago.

I have, over the years, worked on many different sound systems big and small, good and bad. I have put on good shows with bad equipment and bad shows with good equipment and shows without equipment when someone dropped the ball and the gear didn't show up.

One of the more memorable systems was a friends Fender Twin Reverb, sitting on top of a 4-10 cab,sitting on top of an old Wurlitzer[spelling?] jukebox that his Dad had cut the top mechanical part off of, leaving the chrome grill and nameplate covering the beautiful sounding 15" bass speaker. We played through this with it between and behind us, him with a bass or electric gutar, and me with a Yamaha 12 string acoustic, singing and playing through one Shure high impedence mic. We used it several times in the high school gym and I remember it being loud and the classmates loved it.I don't know if the classmates remember it the same way. Ahh the sixties.

During a period of time in the early eighties I had the pleasure of knowing people who were instrumental in getting me gigs opening for acts such as John Prine, The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, Don McLean, Ray Charles, The Band, Jerry Jeff Walker, Bobby Bare and others.

I have been called a troubador, a balladeer, a folkie, country and other things I won't mention, but never have I considered myself a musician. I am self taught with a little bit of God given talent that I love to share live, but hate to record.

The Primary Reason I don't have a PAS, is I have a perfectly good Bose 402II extended bass system that is less than a year old, and with my years of experience I am able to work most situations without monitors and have very satisfactory results. When I do buy a PAS [I'm waiting for the PS2]It will be more for the convenience of transport and setup than for the other attributes that all the users are raving about. Which brings me to the point I would like to see discussed in this forum.

I believe that people like myself who have worked alone for a long time in many situations do not necessarily see conventional systems in the same negative light that competing electric guitarists in a band might see them. Or the same way a lead singer standing in front of drums and cymbals might see them. And while I believe that it is my job to give my audience the very best sound I can, It is more important that I hear what I want to hear, because if I am happy on stage the audience will accept my sound. I suppose the folks-at-Bose will say Exactly!! but I am able to get good sound with conventional systems.

I believe the biggest problem with any sound system is improper EQ. This is so basic but there are so many "pros" out there that don't understand that EQ means equalization and I interpret that to mean the system will respond equally to each frequency that is presented to it. Bose does an excellent job of building systems that have a good flat response in most situations, and other companies are getting better at "voicing" speakers and amps to eliminate much of the tweaking that used to be required. Still most conventional systems that have had a RA run on them in a proper manner will perform admirably well with a solo performer.


I believe that some of the hardest converts will be some of the best and most successful musicians, because they have been successful with conventional equipment.

I don't believe that your poll will offer any usable data based on years of gigging but it might get some interesting debate started.

I hope I have not bored or offended anyone with this post, would like to see other contributors share ideas and experiences.

Thanks Oldghm [Old grey haired man]

Oldghm,great post!
I only started performing solo about 10 years
ago! I found away to get good sound out of some weird guitar amps and then great sound out of a modest carvin p.a.
My biggest challange was people up front getting blown away while the people in back
could complained that they could'nt hear!
With the PAS I don't have that challange at all with the space specs givin! No laser beam effect! If it's to loud it't to loud everywhere! By the way when I started my solo thing I started off with a bang and played something like 125 gigs a year! In all kinds of places and rooms and I must say the Pas has gotten more compliments sound wise than anything I've ever used!I've used the Pas since Dec and it works as advertised! No if and butts! However my actions sometimes belay the fact that I either don't believe the lit on the pas or just don't understand how well they really work!{i'll do things like use two systems when one would do just fine! or I'll try to defend my using the pas when I don't have too!} Or it could be that in a world where you can't trust anything or anyone and that belief in a product like the pas is hard to come by! {read the naysayers thread} Oldghm have you played a gig with the pas? AL....

Oldghm,

Thank you! sincerely for length, breadth, and depth of your thoughful reply. I do appreciate the thought and effort you put into it.

Debate is good, not simply as an exercise but as an education. It sounds like you have found your sound, and you know how to get it when you need it.

I had the rare priviledge to work with a fellow a few months ago, who has spent the last thirty years touring, doing something like two hundred shows per year for all that time.

He has had big bands, filled stadiums, and has been know to open his guitar case and sing Happy Birthday to a five year old who recognized him in a restaurant.

He was doing a tiny concert - a fund raiser - for Cancer Research. My role, I (fearfully) agreed to do "sound" for the night.

I set up some 802s, some stage monitors, and a powered mixer, in a room that comfortably seated about 100 people. To many, this should sound like an easy setup.

We did sound check in under 5 minutes. During that time he discovered the resonant frequency in the room, the best angle for the microphones (vocal and guitar), tweaked the setting for his in-guitar mic'd/blended pickup (the coolest 40 something year old Martin), did away with the monitors, did away with the back-line acoustic guitar amp. He directed me to take out the effects, roll back some of the processing added by the outboard 802 piece, notch a frequency he was able to identify by ear, (anticipating the change in acoustics when the room was full of people) and we were done.

Okay - it was a simple setup, done in a room he had not played before, with equipment new to him, with a sound-guy (me) whose major contribution to the situation was hauling the gear.

It was a stunning show that night. He told stories behind the stories in his songs. He brought tears to our eyes from both laughter and sadness. He sounded so natural and real it was if he was unamplified in a livingroom with friends. We all felt like old friends. Except for the occasional sob or uncontainable laugh, through most of the show, you could have heard a pin drop but for his sound.

The point to all of this? We will probably be doing this show again in a few months. I will bring the PAS's this time. As I got one, and then the second PAS, I wondered many times if he would benefit from it.

I am pretty sure that the audience will appreciate the lower volume in the front rows and the people at the back will appreciate being able to hear more detail. I am sure that it will be a lot simpler to set up and tear down.

Your story reminds me of him. Thank you for sharing it.

Oldghm

Thanks for sharing your story. You've certainly been around the block and its great to hear from someone with so much stage experience.

We don't want to create the impression that conventional system are always bad. They can work well in some situations and if they are run by a dedicated, educated and capable individual.
Especially in the case of a solo performer such as yourself, a lot of the problems that are typical in triple systems are not as prevalent as in the case of a band. You don't need to worry about finding the right spot in the mix, there is no interaction with other musicians and accurate spatial representation (very important for a multi-performer setup) can easily be achieved.
If you have your own system that your primarily use and you've got a lot of experience how to set it up and work it in most gigging scenarios, you can achieve very good results, as I'm sure you have.
For many other musicians this is not an option. Personally, I play bass in a 10-piece soul/funk/rock/blues band and when using a conventional system we were constantly plagued by sound problems. The horns and singers were always complaining that they can't hear themselves, at no place on the stage could you hear both (horns & vocals). I was actually using a wireless to wander around so I could listen either to the horns or the harmony vocals. It was always way too loud. Setup and tear-down (with our own system) was a nightmare.
For some gigs, we simply rented a sound system and operator. Sometimes that worked okay, sometimes it didn't. Good sound guys are hard to find and sometimes simply outside the pay range of a typical gig. Even with a "good" professional sound person, I always felt isolated on stage within my own local sound bubble.
Since we have adopted a Personalized Amplification System(tm) setup, all these problems have simply disappeared. Horns and singers are happy, I can hear the whole and band play much more musically, we play music together and the audience is delighted.

Sorry for ranting. All I'm trying to say is, that in my experience good and professional sound persons are more the exception than the rule and, even in the good cases, there can be a substantial benefit in using our new approach, even if you are a good and successful musician.

Hilmar

Oldghm-
This is coming from Oldbhm, that old bald headed man. Similiarly, I've been doing solo for going on 29 years and have always been able to make almost any room sound good to me, the people generally didn't know the difference, by understanding my equipment and listening. Good common sense goes a long way in this business. I've been totally frustrated by the lack of understanding or ability of other people running sound for me to listen and know what good is all about.

Having just purchased new sound equipment last year, the tho't of getting something new made me sit back and ask myself if this was a wise purchase. After doing over 25 concerts since mid April in all kinds of situations, I was invited to a music school for singers and instrumentalist and Murray State U. I finally got to hear another artist use my PAS system in much the same way I do. I have to tell you, I was awe struck by the sound, the clarity, the fullness in the entire room as I walked around an auditorium that would seat around 250. I was so excited by what I heard. I was glad and proud it was my system being used.

I guess, I want to tell you to go try one and give it a chance. I believe the old timers who have been successful at what they have done will jump at the PAS becaue they are the same people who will quickly recognize the value. When you are good, and I think you are, you'll understand. I guess my tho't is those who don't hear the difference are probably those who don't know the difference.

One other side line is that my back has not hurt from setting up and tearing down since I started with my PAS.

To All,

I should have stated in my post that I accept all claims by Bose and users that the PAS is and will do everything as claimed and the world would be a better place if we all had one.

Big AL.... No I haven't had the chance to try one yet, A friend bought one but we haven't had the chance to get together. I'm going to Nashville Tonight, if I have the time I will go to GC there and check it out.

ST.....I opened a show once for Leon Redbone. At the sound check he used a battery operated cassette recorder, moving it from table top to table top around the room as he instructed the sound man what to do. When he was through he told the sound man not to change anything during the show that the people would listen, and the did. One of the quietest shows I've ever witnessed. I very quietly asked the sound man to set my channel the same way.

Hilmar...I'll say it to you... Exactly!! Maybe just a hint on the PS2?..........

Singing Auctioneer.... As my now deceased very bald Uncle Hayden used to say as he rubbed my head, "Some people's hair turns Grey, and some people's hair turns loose."

Thanks, Oldghm

PS. I do fully expect to add a PAS to my already too large invetory of sound equipment, Probably already would have if I could go to my "local" Bose dealer and get one.

I learned a long time ago the danger of thinking "they'll never hear the difference." It is true that many listeners do not consciously hear the things we so easily discuss. They don't have the training and associated vocabulary to be able to analyze the sound they're hearing. This much seems straightforward.

The mistake I realized many years ago is to take the next (logically incorrect) step and say "therefore, they can't appreciate good sound". There are a few ways to see this. You might not complain about an automobile with a certain smoothness of ride, but if I put you in a car with much smoother suspension, many would realize it right away and consciously prefer it. Even in a situation where the listener is exposed to what an analytic person knows is better sound, they might not consiously realize it, but still benefit. For example, people might like a certain airport better than another and never attribute that preference to the fact that the paging system is much better.

My rule has therefore become: "If most of those with analytical listening ability can hear and appreciate a difference, then so can the public -- even if the public does not without help express that appreciation."

Hello all, this is my first post to this list. I make my living as a full time musician playing hammer dulcimer. My time is split fairly evenly between solo gigs and as a soloist on the road with Yanni.

I've had my PAS for a month now and my instrument souunds better than ever in the typical places where I play solo. All I have ever wanted is for the audience to be able to hear it like I hear it. My ears and back thank you.

To All,

It's been nearly 4 wks since this thread started and only 52 votes so far and even fewer comments. Come on, where is everybody?

Oldghm

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Oldghm,

Greetings All!
I am a new user of the PAS. Got it just last Thursday and love it. I think that Bose had me in mind when they developed this system. I do a solo gig playing electric guitar (Tele's mostly)through a Line 6 POD, a Boss JS-5 Jam Station as my backup band, and an Akia Dou-Buddy as my backup vocals. The system performs remarkably well for what I do. I'm able to hear my mix just as my audience hears it. Very novel indeed.

To ST's and Oldghm's point, I agree that most people don't know what makes good sound, but do appreciate it when they hear it. Before, when using my conventional PA/monitor set up (which I thought always sounded GREAT)I always had to ask a friend, my wife, or someone else in the audience if everythig sounded OK. I knew that what I heard in the monitors was different than what the audience was hearing.

Now, I have only used the PAS twice playing out, and an amazing thing has happened. Several people have said how good it sounded without any solicitation! So I agree with Ken-at-Bose that while people accept the sound they are given at any show, they still recognize better sound when they hear it.

I had the pleasure of hearing one of Bose's test bands, Shuckin' Bubba Deluxe, at a local club about a month ago. The club is maybe 40' wide by 120' long. The band was in the center of the club playing to the short side. I knew the minute I walked in and heard them that something was different. I was knocked out by the sound. Then I saw they were using 5 Bose PAS's and thought "what the hell are those!?" The sound was full, but not the usual deafening intensity of most bands, and it was crystal clear, without being sharp or harsh. After that one experience with the PAS I knew I had to own one!

I have played in bands off and on for 30+ years. Been doing a solo for about 2 years. I did a DJ gig for 9 years. I too have worked with good systems and bad. I can appreciate, as my audiences do, the sound quality of the PAS.

Someday, all sound systems will be made this way. Keep Rockin'

Oldrocker

Hello Old Friend,

Audiences DO recognize better sound when they hear it. That is one level of enjoyment.

Another entirely is when YOU bring things to their consciousness by education. Then, their level of enjoyment goes up in quanta.

For example, if an audience LEARNS that being able to quickly connect what they hear with what they see is known by science to yield a much deeper understanding and appreciation for whatever it is that's caught their interest, then they will truly enjoy a performance where they can use this benefit.

Now, of course, it's not possible in every live show to do this kind of education, but in many it is, sometimes in conversation during breaks, sometimes even from the stage. There's nothing wrong, for example, with saying under the right circumstances, "Some of you out there may have noticed that we're not using any monitors or PA speakers. Instead we're using these flagpole-shaped speakers behind us. We're not guessing at what you're hearing, and we play much better as a result. We hope you enjoy that."

Ken and all,
You're right about the education aspect of the system, but not so much as educating the audience as educating other performers. I had read in other threads about "GPS" (guitar player syndrome) and must admit that I also had it.
I used to use (and still have) a Peavey classic 50/212 that I used exclusivly for my guitar. Absolutly beautiful sounding tube amp. I thought nothing could replace it. Then I tried a Line 6 POD, and was amazed. I no longer needed to lug that heavy amp around and got quite satisfoctory (and then some!) sound by patching the POD through the front end. The point is that as musicians, we are very reluctant to change, or even consider, something other than that with which we have had success.
The same principle is true with the PAS with regards to conventional PA setups. We as performers are reluctant to try the unknown and give up the comfort of a system we believe works great. Without hearing or using a PAS system, most musicians blow off the concept as unworkable. These people have "SSS" (sound system syndrome)!
So I believe that the bigger challenge is to educate performers/musicians who in turn educate their audiences with crystaline shows at more modest levels.

oldrocker

ST, thanks for the poll! I put myself in for all my years of gigging, though I too had a 17-year hiatus.

I've only really been making the rounds these last 6 years, in every kind of festival and acoustic venue, with the full range of hideous to heavenly PA/sound person experiences. And plenty where I was it as far as managing the sound board, getting my bandmates to run out front and check, etc. Or worse, plugging through some battered house system on our own.

When the sound person is savvy about acoustic instruments, knows how to sound check (and remember what he/she did during that time), and stays attentive during our performance.... it can be sublime.

We three play several instruments each, so a bit of finesse is called for, as well as appreciation for what we're doing. We've met a lot of caring, nice people doing sound, but only a handful who made the experience great for the audience and us.

We just played our first giglet to try our our 3 new PAS's and what a nice experience! We can hear! We also really appreciate why the "7-8 foot ideal distance" from the units. In my living room, and at yesterday morning's patio cafe gig, we had maybe 4-5 feet each. It was fine (way better than our old small gig setup) but we realized that a bit more distance would probably enable even better hearing... that is catching more of the blend between us.

We think that pointing the 2 outside units in a bit helps. It may be just in the close-quarters that it's necessary. The bandmate farthest away from me needed to hear more guitar from me, while I was simply basking in it. A slight turn of the unit seemed to help.

We will be playing a street fair (San Luis Obispo, CA) in a couple days, so we'll have room to do it right. And turn it up a bit more (heh, heh!).

We're also following the advice of one contributor here, who brought a sound meter to his first gigs. Radio Shack has em for 49 bucks, so what the hey. A little objective data to go with our sensibilities...

One more thing to make this a REALLY long post: a side benefit has improvements in our individual setups. I've posted our various rigs vis a vis fiddle, hammered dulcimer, and guitars (don't know how to make the links here). We are now better set up for those gigs when we can't do our own sound. e.g., I now only need one house channel for my 3 guitars... and the EQ is already set!

MBanshee

I'm guessing your 2 addition PAS must have come in, in time for the gig yesterday - congratulations! I'm going to post a story about an outdoors gig I did last week where we were perhaps TOO far from our PAS gear, and the challenges that issue might present. But even when not perfect, the worse case scenario with the PAS has still been better than almost every experience with traditional gear, short of the few 'sublime' ones.

Glad you're enjoying them - I know I do!

Ken

I began playing drums in '70 at 17 years old. Since then I have played nearly
every saturday night except for a three year hiatus in the '80s and another two
year span in '00 when I got too busy in the studio to do both.

Last spring, I quit the band I was in because I was having to lug around and set up the PA system as well as my drums and it was just too much work and pressure. I hated running the board because I never knew how the sound was out front. No one in the band had the experience to help me out. I thought live performing was all over for me.

A mere month or two after quitting the band I discovered the PAS and now I have
been reborn. It is a gift from God (with a little help from Bose). I can run sound with confidence and without killing myself getting set up.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

PS

I just joined a band with a guitarist and bassist in their 30's. They aren't
having back trouble yet and they have a sound man and lots of gear. So of course
they want to use it.

They first saw the PAS at my house at practice last week and they were very
impressed at the clarity and fullness at low volume. I am predicting that as I
work the Bose in on the gigs that I book personally, that they are going to be
tempted to make the switch to PAS. I know that their age group is not
represented well in ST's poll but I think it will happen.

UPDATE - April 28, 2005 (edited Post):
It happened! They love the Bose system, I bought another L1/2-B1 and the two of them are supporting our 3pc band nicely (with the addition of a 15" sub for kick & bass). Our bassist is going to buy one of his own as soon as he can warm his wife up to the idea. The conversion process only took 2 months!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DrumrPete,

Hey,

I'm representin' the 30's set. We're into this new approach!

Steve